Description:
In this episode, I interview Kyle about her two very different birth experiences. She talks about how a birth plan can change after working so hard and how exhaustion can impact your ability to think straight and advocate for yourself. She also goes into detail about her extremely traumatic cesarean birth that was followed by a redemption HBAC!
Disclaimer: This podcast is intended for educational purposes only with no intention of giving or replacing any medical advice. I, Kiona Nessenbaum, am not a licensed medical professional. All advice that is given on the podcast is from the personal experience of the storytellers. All medical or health-related questions should be directed to your licensed provider.
Resources:
- Matriarch Birth Photography-Kyle Kaz: https://www.matriarchbirthphotography.com/
- The VBAC Link Podcas : https://www.thevbaclink.com/podcast/
- The Business of Being Born: https://www.thebusinessof.life/the-business-of-being-born
- Firstlight Midwifery care-Dawn & Emily: https://www.tacomabirth.com/home.html
- The Miles Circuit: http://www.milescircuit.com/
- Perinatal Support of Washington: https://perinatalsupport.org/
Definitions:
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Transcription of Episode 34:
Kiona: 0:07
Hello, and welcome to Birth As We Know It. I am your podcast host, Kiona Nessenbaum. I have experienced birth as a doula, a student midwife, and as a mother of three amazing children with my husband and high school sweetheart by my side. After attending over 130 births, including my own, I’ve realized that each birth experience is truly unique. So make sure you subscribe and join me every week as we are guided through many different birth experiences through the lens of the storyteller. Please be aware that some of the stories can be triggering to hear, so feel free to pause, take a breath, and come back and listen whenever you’re ready. With that said, let’s prep ourselves to dive deep and get detailed about what really happens in the birth space. As a reminder, this podcast is intended for educational purposes only, and has no intention of giving or replacing any medical advice. All advice that is given on the podcast is from the personal experiences of the storytellers. All medical or health related questions should be directed to your licensed provider. Before we dive deep into this episode, I want to share a lovely review that was left on the podcast. This review was actually left by my daughter Kavina I have no idea how she figured out how to leave a review, but she left it on March 11th, which was very soon after I started the podcast. Her title says amazing work. And she writes,”Mom, you have been doing amazing. I love how passionate you are on this podcast. And I hope your future storytelling days will never end”. And she puts like a tough emoji. And the hand clapping emoji, the teary eyed happy emoji and a smiley face emoji. And of course she rated it. Five stars. My beautiful baby. I love her so much. She supports me in so many ways that is hard to explain. I think that having a daughter that supports a mother, as much as she supports me is amazing. She is like, my best friend, and I love her dearly. So thank you, Kavina. I love you. All right y’all, let’s hop into this episode. Hello everybody and welcome back to The Birth As We Know podcast Today I am really excited to have on a guest who is the owner of Matriarch Birth Photography. Her name is Kyle Kaz. So welcome Kyle. Thanks for joining us today.
Kyle: 2:32
Hi, I am so excited to be here.
Kiona: 2:35
Yeah, I’m super, super stoked to get into your stories.’cause I briefly read on your website that your stories are what encouraged you to get into birth photography. So start off with telling us a little bit about yourself and who’s in your family.
Kyle: 2:46
So my name is Kyle. I live in Tacoma, Washington, which is just south of Seattle. it’s a tiny, big city. I am an elementary teacher turned birth photographer. I have two little ones, Penny and Red. Penny’s three and a half. Red is 17 months. I live with my husband and my mama and our animals and our kids. And yes, absolutely. I dove into birth photography because of my own experiences with, birth, labor, And child bearing.
Kiona: 3:17
I think that’s great. I love the sound of your family. I love that you also have some pets in there and I love that you live with your mom. I’m super, super pro, multi-generational houses, homes, even though, well, I guess maybe your mother lives with you. My mother-in-law lives with us, but technically we’re just all under the same roof. Right.
Kyle: 3:34
Yeah,
Kiona: 3:34
that’s where the support matters most.
Kyle: 3:37
We knew we wanted to be together forever and my husband, was into it as well, you know, so it’s been amazing. She lives in kind of her own apartment downstairs, so we still have our own spaces, but we come together every day and my kids are being raised by three, like loving, you know, adults. So it’s pretty cool.
Kiona: 3:54
Yeah. I love that so much. And one day I hope for my mother-in-law to have her own space. Right now she just has a bedroom, but, Eventually we will expand into the mother-in-law suite kind of thing, which is super cool. so before we dive into your pregnancies, let’s just start off by asking what was conception like for you? Were you planning on having a baby or were they surprises?
Kyle: 4:15
So I was about 28 when my husband and I decided we, we were getting close to being ready. And so I decided for that year I was gonna go off birth control. I’d been on it since I was about 15 years old, and I really wanted to just let my body like normalize and regulate itself and, you know, go off all of that. So I did that for about a year and I also started just kind of weight training, heavy lifting, like just trying to get into the best shape I could. And I did. I spent that year getting in really amazing shape, just very healthy, strong. And then at 29, basically after my, like, just after my 29th birthday, I downloaded the Flow app and started tracking my, my cycle. And literally we got pregnant after the first try. I am sorry. I am one of those people. I, I always feel weird saying that, but it was so easy for us to get pregnant and I, I kind of was in shock. I had come up with all of these really cute ways to tell my husband that we were pregnant, but literally in that moment, I like raced out of the bathroom and practically threw this test him. I was like, do you see that? What is that? Is that, is that a second line? You know? and I didn’t live with my mom at the time, so I showed up at her door, like a good 10 minutes later doing the same thing, just, you know, shoving this pregnancy test in her face sobbing. So, um, that was a really, really easy process. and my pregnancy was really straightforward as well. It, you know, I, I had some nausea. I threw up a couple times, but what was hardest for me, I think was the fatigue. I really didn’t even have the energy to keep working out, and so I kind of stopped working out entirely. Now, I was a primary teacher at this point, and so that’s a pretty active job. You’re up on your feet, you’re walking around the school, and so I still had a lot of movement in my daily, uh, daily life, but I, I stepped away from the gym. This was also, I don’t know if this is just like a pregnant person thing, but I got pregnant and we were like, we should probably also start you on a new grade level and do a home renovation because you know, like those are great ideas. And so we started renovating our a hundred year old craftsmen and like literally down to the studs, every single room in our house. So we ended up moving in with my mom and in her thousand square foot house just hunkering down with our our animals. Gosh, bless her. She is incredible So we lived there for the first several months of my pregnancy. anyway, I all this is to say I was kind of on that traditional, I’m gonna call it the traditional track of, I had an ob, I didn’t really know much about birth, honestly, at this point. I knew what my mom had told me about her own birth,
Kiona: 6:59
Mm-hmm.
Kyle: 7:00
which was really interesting. you know, she kind of was told that her pelvis was too narrow to birth me, and so she had a cesarean. So that was kind of in my head.
Kiona: 7:08
Mm-hmm.
Kyle: 7:09
and then I remember having this, uh, sit down with my girlfriend Drew. We were having coffee and Drew had had these just amazingly dreamy home births with, uh, this team of midwives. And she actually showed me, she had a birth video of her birth. So she showed me it, and I just remember going like, I didn’t know this was an option. It, it just sat with me I left there feeling like, I don’t know, I just felt all this courage. And this, my mindset completely shifted after that. And at 16 weeks, I transferred care from the OB to, my amazing midwives, her midwives, my midwives, our midwives, Don and Emily. And, all I can say is that after the first visit of going into their office, it was like, it was like coming home. I just felt like I was home and, sorry, I get a little emotional because I just love them so much. The nurturing and maternal energy in that office, it never just felt like an appointment. It felt like therapy and like sitting on a friend’s couch, um, which is so vastly different to how what, what my care had been leading up to that.
Kiona: 8:15
Right.
Kyle: 8:17
there also kind of this shift occurred also where now I knew there was more out there. I knew there were other options and I wanted to literally, I wanted to know about it all. And so I just started devouring birth stories, uh, podcasts, documentaries, you know, the ones you know, uh, the business of being born. Literally everything I could get my hands on to understand what birth really could be. Why, why it is the way it is for so many people. And I think that I kind of started to develop a better understanding of what I was capable of. And I knew four things at this point. I knew that I wanted to try for an unmedicated birth that was really important to me. I didn’t wanna go down the, you know, go through all the cascade of interventions. And I didn’t wanna have a cesarean like my mom did. And I knew I wanted a doula. So I knew I wanted an unmedicated birth. I knew I wanted a doula.’cause I really, everything I had read just really helped me understand that that support was really vital.
Kiona: 9:19
Mm-hmm.
Kyle: 9:20
I knew I wanted to try to give birth at home and I knew I wanted a birth in water. Those were my four my four things kind of guiding me through this process. and I really did all the work on paper. I don’t know if you kind of get what I mean when I say that. Like, I learned all the things. I did all the things, but I don’t know that I necessarily did like the, the emotional work
Kiona: 9:44
Mm mm-hmm.
Kyle: 9:45
that I did all the work on paper and I was, I was so prepared to do this my way and to to control what happened the best I could. My type a personality. Just wanted to neatly check all these little boxes off. and then at 41 weeks prodromal labor started, yeah. Wow. So it was a Thursday, it was midnight. My husband was fast asleep next to me. We’re back in our craftsmen that’s freshly renovated. and my contractions started. And I just remember this like surge of adrenaline and I just, it’s like I needed to wake up right at midnight and tell the world that I was finally in labor. I was, you know, past my due date. And I was finally in labor. And I remember texting my mom,’cause we’ve always had this kind of freakish psych connection, I said, I said, did you feel that? You know, thinking like she has felt the shift in the universe,
Kiona: 10:46
Right, right. Yeah.
Kyle: 10:47
And of course, no, she’s fucking asleep. So she didn’t text me back. but I just laid there awake. I couldn’t, they were inconsistent. They weren’t that powerful. But I just could not go back to sleep because my wheels had just started turning and I, I let my husband sleep. And then as the morning came, I remember trying to do things to kind of encourage them to get more consistent. So I remember using like clary sage, um, and doing the miles circuit, just getting tons of movement, like walking around our neighborhood, you know, still running on no sleep. I, what I should have probably done at this point was rest, but I didn’t, and then I remember losing my mucus plug and going, okay, things are happening. Um,
Kiona: 11:31
right? Yeah.
Kyle: 11:33
but then like the opposite happened and everything just slowed down. Like everything just kind of stopped. I would have a contraction like once every 10 minutes, they’d be in my back. They were really uncomfortable, but, you know, they weren’t, they didn’t feel productive. So my mom came over that day and I just sat and bounced and we watched all of my childhood favorites. We watched, you know, that thing you do, and two won Fu and Sister Act and just like all, anything I could do to just get those happy, like good feelings, get that oxytocin flowing.
Kiona: 12:05
Mm-hmm.
Kyle: 12:06
and things kind of fizzled out, you know? But at this point I was just exhausted. it’s Friday now it’s midnight and contractions start again and they’re gaining intensity and then they start to taper off again. And they’re just so intense in my back at this point. I just remember thinking like, I don’t feel like I can get through this unless someone’s knuckles are like buried deep in my back. and they really prevented me. I mean, I probably slept about four hours. They prevented me from from sleeping though most of that night. And the rest is in between there that it gets a little fuzzy. But I know that by 5:30 PM on that Friday, my, my doula calls and she goes, have the midwives suggested breaking your water. And literally right when she finished asking me that, I was laying in bed with my husband was talking to her on the phone and right when she asked me that, my water broke and it was like straight out of a movie. I just remember springing out of bed and like a gallon of water gushing. It would not stop. And my husband is screaming, he’s like, I’m getting towels. And I’m like, it won’t stop. And he’s, we’re smiling and there’s so much joy, like it is literally flooding our new hardwood floor But we were just laughing and like cackling and there was so much joy because I think both of us were like, something’s happening. Something big just happened. And okay, finally. And that was seriously just I, looking back, it was the most happy moment I think in that whole, in the whole labor. And things really did start to pick up at this point. I, I felt like I had to be moving, and I was just kind of meandering around the house, moving on my ball. I really had to stop. It was hard for me to talk through my contractions at this point. I had to have, my mom or my husband both were there. They had to be digging into my back because it was just god awful. My doula comes over at this point, and this is probably 11:00 PM so it’s 11:00 PM on Friday. It’s about a full 24 hours since everything has started. So she comes over and I decide that it’s time to get in the pool because my back just hurts so much and I feel like I need a little bit of relief and I’m kind of hanging over the pool. My mom is putting like cold compresses on my, on my forehead. My husband is in there with me at this point. I have a great picture of me just reclining into him and him just sitting there and holding me. Alex, my doula calls the midwives and by about 1:00 AM they are there and they do a cervical check. And by this point, I, I was like falling asleep on the edge of the, the, the tub. I was so exhausted. I had hardly slept at all. And my body was just so fatigued. And I remember getting out of the tub and getting on the couch, and I remember the cervical check, and I, and I saw the look, one of my midwives gave my other midwife. And I just knew at that moment, I was like, fuck, what, what’s, what’s she gonna say? And, you know, they got really quiet and she said, you’re a five and we really think that you might need to transfer because we think you’re too exhausted. And by the time you are fully dilated, we’re afraid you won’t be able to push and then feed your baby when, when you know she’s here. And there was absolutely no pressure. I could’ve absolutely said no. I wanna keep trying, I wanna stay. But I knew she was right. I knew how I felt in my body and I knew she was right. And I knew that an epidural would at least allow me to rest so I could give it a fighting chance after I had some rest. And it was kind of a, it was this eruption of activity, like my mom, my husband, my doula, my two midwives, me, were all running around trying to collect all this stuff because I didn’t have a birth bag. I didn’t have anything prepared that was not on my list. Like going to the hospital was not gonna happen. It was not even an option for me. And so it was just kind of, it was, it was chaos. We all crowded into our separate cars. I remember my husband, I mean, this is probably one, yeah, it’s 1:00 AM my husband driving so fast. He ran a red light on accident on the way to the hospital. There was no one else on the road, thankfully it, it was, it was pretty crazy. So finally we get to the hospital. and I get an epidural pretty quickly. I think that my midwives called ahead and I got my epidural pretty quickly, and I remember pretty instantly going to sleep. It was like exactly what I needed. I just needed to sleep. And really quickly on, I don’t know if this is typical, but right after getting my epidural, I couldn’t feel anything like chest down. I was just, I was gone. I was gone to my body, and so I went to sleep and the water clock, you know, is ticking.
Kiona: 17:02
mm-hmm.
Kyle: 17:03
I don’t know if I just said this, but I just, I literally didn’t feel like I was in my body. It was very, it was a really strange feeling. so we’re at, we’re on Saturday now. and it’s now 9:00 AM in the morning. So I’ve been sleeping from about 2:00 AM to 9:00 AM I got some really good sleep. And they come to check me and I’m still at a five, which is pretty wild. Now that I’ve worked in birth spaces. A lot of people say, oh, they’re gonna get that epidural and it’s gonna be like magic.’cause their body’s gonna get to rest. It can open. That did not happen. I was still a five and I remember feeling pretty discouraged, but knowing it’s okay. We still have time, everything’s gonna be fine. And then they suggested, starting Pitocin. And I, I really, I just feel like I wasn’t super great at advocating for myself. Maybe just because it was my first time. I knew, I knew, I feel like I knew better than to agree to a lot of the other interventions, but I, I said yes. And so the Pitocin started. we know the water clock is ticking. I can’t feel a dang thing. I’m just sitting there like a blob. And my doula finally suggests around 5:00 PM she suggested like, let’s get you into some different positions. Let’s see if that will help you, dilate. And so it, it, it took a team of probably five five, like between the nurses and my doula and my husband, a team of five to get me in all these, it probably looked hilarious. I, I just felt out of body is all I can keep going back to because I just, I felt so detached what was happening at this point. So they’re all they’re getting me into all these positions. And then it’s probably a couple hours after that I was finally complete. I was fully dilated. It was like that was exactly what my body needed was to just move. and so I got the green light to start pushing. And that was so interesting because I couldn’t feel anything, I couldn’t even feel like a sensation when I was contracting. Like, no pressure, nothing.
Kiona: 19:13
Mm.
Kyle: 19:13
And so I remember asking her to like move one of the monitors so I could see like actual, see the spike because I didn’t know when to start pushing. And so during this time I probably pushed for about two hours. and then the midwife on call, so these aren’t my, my amazing midwives took us to the hospital and then they had to leave and kind of hand over care to these midwives that were on, you know, rot rotate a rotation in the hospital. And I remember at one point she didn’t, she missed a contraction. She didn’t tell me to start pushing’cause she was like scrolling on her phone and I no idea what she was doing. But I remember saying like, I need you to tell me when to start pushing because I can’t feel anything. And at that point I think that’s probably the only like diva moment I had I was like, please help me And so yeah, I’ve pushed for about two hours and it was determined that my little one penny was just, she was really high. She was also turned, she was sunny side up, which is why I’d been having such brutal back labor. and so the midwife suggested doing a manual turn, which I honestly had not heard of. And I, I was all for it. I was completely numb, so, okay, go for it. And it was, it’s so surreal thinking back to this like, person being literally just elbow deep in my body, and I, the pressure was insane. No pain, but intense pressure. And she tried so hard to, to turn penny a couple times, and eventually she did. She did get her turn, but she was still high. So I started pushing for another hour and meanwhile there’s this revolving door of staff. I mean, I think I spent time with like three different midwives during this time, and, and different nurses. And I just remember, God, I remember the, the last midwife. I, I spent time with her looking at me and saying, well, you can push for another few hours, or we can go ahead and schedule the cesarean. And it had been about 72 hours of, of labor at this point. And I felt, I’ve never felt so defeated in my life. Like, what do you mean I can just try for another few hours? Like it, I just remember going, it’s time to throw in the towel. I, I can’t do this anymore. I’m exhausted. I just, I felt so defeated and I just didn’t feel like I had anything left to give and so I just kind of resigned to the fact that I was gonna be wheeled in for a cesarean. And so, They, they prepped me pretty quickly and I felt really lucky because the anesthesiologist okayed my, my husband and my doula to go with me.’cause I was scared. You know, I have never had a surgery in my life. And, uh, I just remember laying on the table and I, I don’t, I haven’t talked about this part aloud because I think part of me has always been afraid to scare other people. Say, that’s not what I wanna do. But I did have a very scary experience in the or. and I just remember them, you know, dosing me with something, putting something in, you know, the line I had in my back. And I just remember I couldn’t swallow really quickly. I couldn’t swallow. And I then my vision started clouding and I could hardly see. And I remember that just that huge spike in anxiety and fear when I couldn’t swallow, my vision was clouding. And so I, I remember telling them what was happening and. I think they, they made some adjustments and then they started cutting saying, you know, do you feel this? And I said, yes, I can feel that. And then they just kept, they kept cutting. And I just remember like saying, no, I can feel it, it burns. And this part, everything’s so fuzzy. But I just, I, I kind of went to this place where I felt like I was dying and I, or like, like I was being killed. And I remember saying goodbye to my husband and I thought my mom was in the room. So I was talking to my mom, she wasn’t in the room and I was saying goodbye to my husband completely, you know, telling him to take care of Penny and telling him that to say goodbye to my mom. And then I just remember screaming like the most intense screaming I’ve ever heard coming out of my own mouth, just blood curdling screams.’cause all I could feel was fire. And then everything went black and. I remember waking up in a room and then placing my daughter on my chest and kind of fading in and out. I just remember holding her. I, I don’t, I couldn’t see her very well, and I just remember talking to my husband after the fact, you know, we, gosh, we spent so much time processing this, but I remember telling him my perspective and the wildest thing. He said, I never made a sound in that operating room, and I don’t know what to make of that. It makes you question like, is pain, was the pain real? What? Like bizarre. Really, really scary though.
Kiona: 24:17
yeah.
Kyle: 24:17
But Penny, Penny Kaz was born on March 8th at one oh five in the morning after 72 hours of labor. She was perfectly healthy. Seven, 7.7 ounces. Um, yeah, it was a. It was a really traumatic overall first birth, though.
Kiona: 24:38
Yes. Wow. Um, gonna give that a moment to sit really quick
Kyle: 24:44
Yeah.
Kiona: 24:46
’cause that’s, that’s heavy. There’s so much, so much there. I, there I have notes from your story and I’m just like, thinking back and I was like, okay, I gotta remember this. Gotta remember this.
Kyle: 24:59
Yeah. Yeah.
Kiona: 24:59
remember this. This is, I just wanna say this is an evolution and I am amazed to see that you keep these details with you. You know?’cause you have the whole, the whole evolution of your story. Now, the first thing I wanna say is to go all the way back to the beginning when you apologized about conceiving quickly.’cause you’re like, I’m sorry, like I feel weird saying this. Please, don’t be sorry Sometimes saying, sorry, is just like a, a subconscious thing or something that comes so natural to us. I just wanna validate that it is okay that you conceived quickly. I know, especially maybe as a birth photographer now you’re aware that it takes some people some time to conceive. Um, and I don’t know how the conception process went with red, but we’ll get to that in a minute. Um, so I just wanted to validate and say,
Kyle: 25:50
thanks.
Kiona: 25:51
Yeah, don’t worry about that. No need to be. Sorry. And I’m also really happy to hear that you and your husband and your doula had this moment of happiness when your water did break and how, how crazy that it happened right when she said it. Right
Kyle: 26:07
It was, it was beautiful.
Kiona: 26:09
yeah. Which probably just added to the euphoria in that moment, you know, like, oh my God, this is happening right now. which I think is really, really cool. and moving on to when your midwives were there and then they checked you and you observed their face and realized that there was a shift that was about to happen in your plan or your preferences from your birth, and then you described it as chaos, you know, at that moment of everything changing, everybody doing something, everybody putting things together to make a bag so that you can actually go to the hospital, which wasn’t planned. And so that chaos is real. It is very real. and I’m sure many people who have needed or did experience that situation can relate to that term of, or a phrase, that word chaos. And said your husband was speeding and he went through a red light one question and thought I did have, which may or may not be relevant now, but I was curious how the contractions were for you in the car. Like were you feeling a lot of them? Were you kind of just like in the moment just focused on getting to the hospital? How was that?
Kyle: 27:15
I think honestly, looking back, I think I was a little bit in shock, um, because I don’t, I don’t remember having any pain. I just remember literally being like, I can’t believe we’re on our way to the hospital. You know? I think that I was still like, I was pretty devastated at this point because I think in my heart I knew that if we were going to the hospital, I think I knew what was gonna happen.
Kiona: 27:40
Yeah. Based off your mom’s experience.
Kyle: 27:43
based, well at least that being at least part of my narrative a little bit, you know, maybe in my subconscious and also just, just, you know, having armed myself with all this education, I was like, I, I know, I know the likelihood of a cesarean. I know what the casket of intervention leads to. And yeah, I think that I knew, so I was just, I was very in, in my feels on that, you know, when we were going.’cause I’ve heard, you know, I’ve heard people talk about that drive to the hospital just being the absolute worst. But I, I don’t remember it from a pain perspective.
Kiona: 28:17
Yeah. It’s more of
Kyle: 28:18
I mean physical, physical pain perspective. Yeah.
Kiona: 28:21
Yeah. An emotional pain
Kyle: 28:22
Mm-hmm.
Kiona: 28:23
Yeah. And then you had said that when you got the epidural from that moment on, it was kind of just like an out-of-body experience because you couldn’t feel anything.
Kyle: 28:31
I felt so detached and I felt helpless. I felt like I really had to say, can you please help me? Can someone please? You know, like, I didn’t, I didn’t say those things, but that’s what I felt like I needed to do to get, to get help from the, you know, huge amount of hospital staff around me. yeah, it was, that was really tough.
Kiona: 28:51
Yeah. And I, I feel like people are gonna relate to that aspect of your story as well, because it’s just, it is very much of a, an out of body experience of needing to first make that decision when it’s something that you didn’t plan on making and then going through the process of not being able to feel anything. I feel like emotionally, the first thing many people would do is kind of to just like dissociate in a way. And like, not connect because you can’t lift your leg, you know, like you can’t feel things.
Kyle: 29:24
Oh, can I, can I add one thing really quick?
Kiona: 29:26
Yeah, of course.
Kyle: 29:27
I, I just, this memory came back to me. I have, I have this memory of my doula kind of whispering to me right before I started pushing. She goes, why don’t you hold off on pushing the button so that you can maybe feel a little bit more and maybe it’ll help you? And she didn’t say anything after that. And in my mind I was like, I’ve been in pain for three days. No way. Like, no way. I’m pushing the button.
Kiona: 29:49
Yeah.
Kyle: 29:50
But in retrospect, my God, I wish I would have listened because I really do feel like having some sensation down there would’ve made a huge difference in being able to push in a way that was productive.
Kiona: 30:02
Hmm. Yeah.
Kyle: 30:03
So,
Kiona: 30:04
That’s a good point. That is a good point.’cause even the small sensations that you feel during the pushing phase can help connect the mind and body back after being numb. So Yeah. that is very, very true. And I do like you, you just brought up your doula again and I like that even though you had an epidural, there were still suggestions for position change and even though it took a team of five individuals to help you get in those positions, I like that. you were still moving to the best of your ability trying to progress things still.
Kyle: 30:34
I absolutely credit like fully dilating to, to my doula for sure.
Kiona: 30:39
Yeah, I mean it was also very much your body responding
Kyle: 30:42
Yeah.
Kiona: 30:43
to the motions. and then I also wanted to point out that in this transfer, it was a midwife to midwife transfer. You know, it seemed as if there wasn’t Any issues that were large enough at the time of transfer to need to go directly to an ob. So I bring that up because some people don’t remember or realize that that is a possibility to do a midwife to midwife transfer. and
Kyle: 31:07
And we have a, we have a really wonderful, midwifery, a birthing center here in Tacoma. but I, I will tell you, even even the transfer from midwife to midwife, it was really jarring and it was so different. The environment was so different, um, still so much more sterile and so much, I just didn’t, I didn’t know anybody. It was constantly changing. There were so many people and beeps it still, it was very jarring.
Kiona: 31:32
Yeah. A very, very, very different environment
Kyle: 31:35
Yeah.
Kiona: 31:35
even with that midwife to midwife transfer. Yeah. And the reason why I brought up midwife to midwife transfer, because usually. You’re hoping that the mindset of the provider in the hospital is at least more similar to the mindset of your out-of-hospital provider
Kyle: 31:48
Absolutely.
Kiona: 31:49
versus going directly to an OB who sees it as like a sickness or something. Not, not every OB does that, but, you know, sees it as something that needs to be corrected and fixed versus something that needs to progress on its own, if that makes sense.
Kyle: 32:05
absolutely.
Kiona: 32:06
and of course the most jaw-dropping part of this was your experience while you were in the OR and how you said you were feeling all of these things. And I also again, wanna validate that even though you husband said you did not make a sound, everything that you felt was totally real and that is your experience. And I could relate slightly, because when I had to transfer from the home birth of my son, like after I had had him, it was postpartum when I was in the. Ambulance. I literally had like, not necessarily the, my life flashing before my eyes, but that moment internally of like, I’m feeling these things and if I close my eyes, I’m not coming back. You know, so those internal thoughts and those internal experiences. And so the mind body connection with what you experienced in the OR is jarring, you know, the fact that you were experiencing all of these things, but the people on the outside didn’t realize what you were experiencing. That’s intense.
Kyle: 33:08
yeah. We’ve had. Many, many conversations, you know, like metaphysical conversations about like, what is pain, even what, you know. because for me it was the most intense pain of my life and it was the scariest moment of my life. And I, you know, it’s the only time I’ve ever said goodbye to someone’cause I didn’t think I’d see them ever again. You know what I mean? It, it was incredibly traumatic. thankfully I have a really, really wonderful second birth that was healing. That really, really helped me.
Kiona: 33:41
let’s go ahead and dive into that because I am excited to just hear about how different births truly can be. So let’s go ahead and dive into that and then see how it was for you emotionally. Let’s go ahead and start with the conception of Red
Kyle: 33:55
So Red, we used the Flow app again because we had been so successful with it prior, and we got pregnant after the first try. I won’t say the word and I had also for the months leading up to, to, you know, us trying again, I had gotten back into the gym and really just gotten strong and kind of found myself again. I had, you know, weaned my little one. And, and so we got pregnant right away and the same thing happened. I was just so fatigued I could not lift a thing. And I feel like it was compounded this time around because I was chasing after a toddler, a very, very wild child. so my pregnancy was really straightforward. Um, I was teaching first grade at this point, uh, at the same elementary school with my, with my husband. So that was really fun. and we had just moved into a, as I became pregnant, we moved into our new home that we live in now, and my mom moved in, she moved outta my childhood home and in with us. Um, so another, you know, another big move in a pregnancy, I hired my midwives, my beloved midwives back, and my doula, I just knew I couldn’t do it without my team. They, they were so, you know, even though I didn’t get to deliver with my midwives, I knew, I knew. And I, and I didn’t know if I was going to try for a vbac. I didn’t know what I was gonna do, but I, I knew that I wanted all of my care to be with them because I felt the most cared for, you know, with them. and I, and I, the only thing I really knew at this point,’cause there was so much up in the air, was that I needed to do the mental and emotional work this time around. I needed to heal. I needed to heal trauma. And I stayed undecided on the, the home, the vbac, the home birth, or a scheduled cesarean for like, at least half of my pregnancy. And, you know, every week my midwives would say, have you decided? And I’d say, no, not yet. but I, I truly, I truly made peace with any outcome. And I don’t know that I have an answer for that, for how I did that. But I, I just, I think it, it started with just having that dialogue with myself saying, like, hearing myself speak about it to others and saying, if I end up having a scheduled cesarean, that’ll be okay. You know, maybe I’ll have a VBAC or maybe I won’t, maybe we’ll transfer. And then just kind of speaking the outcomes into existence so that I could really wrap my head around it. And I think that I was afraid to have a scheduled cesarean not be, I’ve heard they can be so wonderful and healing in their own way, but I was really afraid I was of what happened, of feeling, again, I was so afraid of that. but I really had to just let that fear go and I wish I had, I wish I could say, and this is how I did it,
Kiona: 36:42
Right, right.
Kyle: 36:43
but that, yeah, that was a huge part. So I wanna say it was probably around 30 weeks that I told my midwives, I’m going to try, I’m gonna try for a VBAC and I wanna do it at home. And so I ended up having to, you know, they had to check out my uterus, I had to do some extra ultrasounds and, and I was cleared for that. I didn’t wanna do a water birth this time. This sounds so silly, but it was expensive and cumbersome. And I, and all I could think of is, what if it just sitting there again all that time? Then I transfer, and then we have the, you know what I mean? I, I just didn’t wanna have, I didn’t wanna have any bells and whistles, so I just went, you know, I’ve got a shower, I’ve got a bath, I’ll figure it out. so anyway, fast forward to three days past my due date. It’s a Saturday and it’s about noon when my contractions started. And they’re inconsistent. By 7:00 PM They’re getting more intense, but they’re still erratic
Kiona: 37:39
Mm-hmm.
Kyle: 37:41
and I remember sitting on the toilet, the, the dilation station going, okay, like, let’s get things ramped up. And I think that was, this was a, a really pivotal shift that occurred for me because I remember in my first labor when a contraction would really hurt, kind of running from the pain and going, oh, ooh, I need to like, get in a different position. It doesn’t hurt so much, you know? And this time around I was like, pain is purposeful. Let’s get, if it hurts, girl, that means you’re doing it. Like, you know, I, like, I sought out the pain, I went toward it instead of running away from it. And so I sat on the toilet from about 7:00 PM to about 10:00 PM and I lost my plug. But again, things were really, they were just inconsistent through the night. And I was kind of in, you know, in my head there’s that thing like, okay, is this, is this prodromal? Is this gonna be like last time? And so I did the thing that I didn’t do and I prioritized rest. I just laid in bed and slept and even just hunkered down, closed my eyes even if I wasn’t sleeping for as often as I could that day. So that was noon Saturday that it started Sunday, uh, my husband and I woke up and we kind of went on a little relaxing walk around the neighborhood. I still wanted to prioritize rest, so I did the mile circuit because, you know, so much of the mile circuit you’re laying down. and so my contractions were actually really consistent when I was lying, when I was side lying. but they would kind of stop altogether when I was upright. And so I kind of, that was kind of in the back of my head too, like, okay, well maybe you need to spend more time lying down, but you know, I’m also trying to take care of my toddler and we’re moving around and snacking and hydrating, and I’m bouncing on my ball and or sideline with the peanut ball. That was a really, that was a favorite of mine this time around. and by about 3:30 PM I just remember feeling so nauseous and getting such a huge headache. And it was like my body telling me like, go rest, rest you, you, you have other, you have a team of people to take care of your child like, you know, rest. And so I got in the bath and I remember not wanting to take a bath because I had heard that the bath, you know, the hot water can actually stall your labor. And in my head it was like, maybe that happened last time. You know, I got in, I got in the bath before I was in active labor and things stalled. And so anyway, I decided, no, like you’re just gonna take a bath because it feels good. It might not help things get consistent, but you need this for yourself. You need this for pain management and for some rest. So I’m in the bath, I call my doula to check in. and by I would say like an hour and a half went by and my contractions just started getting really strong and they were getting difficult to manage. And so I had my husband call my team and I’m still doubting at this point that I’m in active labor, but obviously like the fact that I had him call should have been my tip off. and meanwhile, I just remember my little one, she’s, she’s two at this point, and she just would, you know, point to me when I was having a contraction and say, baby. And so finally we send her off downstairs with grandma. I didn’t realize that my mom had been sitting in the stairwell, just like listening to me labor, listening for signs of baby, for like hours.
Kiona: 40:54
Oh,
Kyle: 40:55
She’s trying not to, you know, I told her, I, I also just wanted to keep my space, you know, just really simple. I didn’t want my, a huge team again. So she kind of stayed outta my space. But by about 6:00 PM my team arrives. And at this point I’m in my bed throwing up in our popcorn bowl. and I’m like, growl, moaning,
Kiona: 41:14
Yeah.
Kyle: 41:16
And I’m completely naked, naked as I came. And I’m a super modest person. So again, tip off, should have, all of this should have tipped me off. I’m telling my husband like, I can’t do this anymore. clearly I’m in transition, right? But I still, in my head, I still was like, they’re gonna tell you you’re a five and that you have to transfer’cause you’re exhausted. That, like I had, I had done so much emotional work, but there was, there was still that little kernel of fear.
Kiona: 41:38
Mm-hmm.
Kyle: 41:40
And I remember my, my midwife going to check me and she couldn’t check me because my, my water bag was just bulging and it was just kind of blocking her. And so they decide that what I could really use is just like a moment alone with my husband. And so they turn our lights off and Matt and I just rest in the bed and we’re just laying together. And he’s probably, you know, I don’t know, half asleep at this point. And I just, this overwhelming urge to push struck. And it, before I even knew it was happening, like something was pushing out of my body onto my bed and I just, I was like, baby, baby, baby. and my team rushes in because all they hear from the living room is baby, baby, baby. And out comes a fully intact bag of water
Kiona: 42:26
Nice
Kyle: 42:28
And my midwife was like, never seen anything like this. And, you know, she’s, she sees my fully intact bag of water. She’s like laying on the bed. She’s, she wants to immediately get, you know, check heart tones and make sure red’s okay, because she’s heard about this happening, but she’s never had the experience. And, red’s fine. He was, he was tolerating everything. And I was a 10, so, um, this is probably, I wanna say 30 hours of labor and I’m a 10, which, you know, in my mind is just a cakewalk in comparison. Um, so I start pushing, I push for about an hour and, and I’m in my bedroom pushing in every position you can imagine. I do all the things and then my midwife says, I think you have a cervical lip. and this was, I think one of the hardest, hardest moments in my labor because I had to go sit on the toilet and not push, and I had never felt, you know, I had never felt pushing what it felt like to be pushy and my body so badly wanted to push and I had to do like the little short breaths in just to keep it from doing that. It’s like I just wanted to do it. So I was only there for about 20 minutes, but it was excruciating to, you know, once you, you, you can have so much pain and labor, but once you get to push and all that pressure, like, like you’re directing the pressure, I don’t know how to describe it. It, it just felt amazing to push. And so being told I couldn’t push for a while really sucked Um, and so lip is gone. We go back into the bedroom and I do about one more hour of pushing, but he’s just like, He’s kind of getting stuck. He’s in kind of a, he was having a hard time navigating the birth canal and it finally, she’s like, why don’t you try getting on your back? And you know, in my mind I’m like, no, we don’t birth on our backs. No way. I’m gonna, I’m gonna birth this baby. Standing up, So finally, you know, I just go, okay, I’m gonna try it. And it was exactly what he needed. You know, I was able to like, pull my legs really far back and he was able to just like, get around and out. and I remember, you know, my, my team, they were just absolute cheerleaders saying like, that’s the way in my head. I’m like, yeah, it is. And I, I just felt, I remember going like this, this burns, oh, that’s what they’re talking about. But it wasn’t like a, oh my gosh, this burns I wanna die. It was like, oh wow, this burns. And then just feeling a pop and like hearing a pop because his little head had popped out. With his hand. He was trying so hard. He had a little nuchal hand. So my midwife is, you know, she’s like, we’re gonna wait for the next contraction. I’m gonna hold him his hand back. Okay. And meanwhile, I’m waiting for the next contraction to hit. And I, I just felt dazed. You know, I still, I think I was in a little bit of shock’cause I still think, I thought I’d have to transfer. And I remember asking my husband, you know, do you see him? He was like, yeah, he’s right there. He’s, he’s, he’s halfway out, you know? And so the next, contraction, he came in one push, uh, right up to my chest. And he, I don’t know if it was because of the water bag being, you know, intact, but he was so bloody, like, just, he looked like Carrie, the most beautiful, horrific little thing I’ve ever seen. So covered in blood. And they, you know, I just felt you look at the photos.’cause my doula is also photographer and I’m just totally in shock. but it, it was amazing. And he, uh, we just got, we got our golden hour, we got our skin to skin, we got all the things that I felt I had been robbed of with Penny’s birth. And it was, it was amazing. He, my, my eight pound boy, totally healthy. I did tear because, that stubborn little nuchal hand when he, when he did come out, his, both of his hands were kind of up by his face and he, he kind of like came out with his arms wide, spread wide. And so I tore, he tore me pretty bad
Kiona: 46:30
Mm.
Kyle: 46:30
Um, so I had to have quite a few stitches. And so the stitches and swelling, honestly, it was a pretty intense recovery. I might even venture to say more so than having my cesarean than my cesarean recovery. But, you know, my heart was healed in so many ways that it, I, it doesn’t matter, you know, looking back, so Redding Kaz was born on Mother’s Day.
Kiona: 46:55
Oh,
Kyle: 46:56
Aft, yeah. Mother’s Day, evening
Kiona: 46:59
Mm-hmm.
Kyle: 47:00
at about 32, 34. It’s kind of fuzzy hours. yeah. Eight pounds. My, my beautiful boy. SoKiona: 47:08
such a redemption birth.Kyle: 47:10
that’s that. I mean, still talking about it. That’s exactly how I feel.
Kiona: 47:15
Oh my gosh. That’s beautiful. And I think that the fact that you took the time you needed in your pregnancy to make a decision on what you wanted, you didn’t feel rushed to. Well, I don’t know if you felt rushed, but from
Kyle: 47:28
I didn’t
Kiona: 47:28
me, Yeah. From what you tell me, you didn’t seem to feel rushed about making a decision because your midwives were checking in with you throughout, and then when you finally made the decision, everybody was on board and you probably had backup plans, like for a potential transfer and what that would look
Kyle: 47:44
I certainly had a hospital bag packed. if you were wondering
Kiona: 47:49
Yeah. And so I love that. And I also really love to hear that you were just in your space listening to your body, doing your own thing, and with your team of your husband and your daughter, penny with you for the beginning. And then Penny went on and your mom gave you your space and, and then that moment of just you and your husband, you know, and then there’s, you’re like all this oxytocin made it to where your bag of water came out. And so at that point, did your bag of waters break after that? Or was he En Caul when he was born?
Kyle: 48:26
he was not En Caul, so I’m not exactly sure what happened after that. Actually, I just remember seeing, like, they showed me the water bag. That’s really strange looking
Kiona: 48:36
Yeah.
Kyle: 48:37
but I know, I don’t think he, he, he, well, I know he didn’t, I’ve seen pic, I’ve seen crowning photos and he did not come out and call
Kiona: 48:43
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Maybe when you sat on the toilet, it popped, or when you got up and moved, it popped or something.
Kyle: 48:50
Yeah.
Kiona: 48:51
Yeah.
Kyle: 48:52
I just felt like I really went inward. I didn’t even text people that I was in labor, you know what I mean? The, the first, I remember that adrenaline rush, my first labor and just needing to tell the world I needed to tell my best friend and my, my mom and my dad and everyone. And I, I really just went inward and it was like, we’re just gonna hunker down and take this slow and prioritize rest and not get ahead of ourselves, you know?’cause this could be prodromal, it could be three days and I’m gonna be ready. This is, this is a marathon and I need to be ready to, you know, cross that finish line.
Kiona: 49:21
Mm-hmm. Yeah. And I think you making the decision to prioritize rest the second time around was a very good decision to make.
Kyle: 49:28
Yeah.
Kiona: 49:30
because it kind of helps you prepare for whatever the outcome was, you know? And I think that’s great.
Kyle: 49:37
I think that the, the prioritizing rest and then leaning into pain, I, I really do feel like those were the two, you know, deciding factors. I think that those are the things I really had to focus on to, to get the outcome I wanted, you know?
Kiona: 49:53
Yeah. And I do love that you mentioned leaning into pain because the first time around, or not even the first time around for you, but many times when people do go into having labor, they tend to run away because it’s a little scary because it’s something that is Uncontrollable. You know, and you touched on control a little bit the first time around when you were talking about preparing. People wanting to have that control
Kyle: 50:17
Oh, yeah.
Kiona: 50:19
labor and birth. As much as we try to, whether we’re providers or individuals there’s no controlling labor. Like labor is running the show.
Kyle: 50:27
Absolutely.
Kiona: 50:28
And, I like that you leaned into it the second time around
Kyle: 50:32
It’s not our nature. Right. You know, fight or flight is what’s in our biology and so it is not, it’s not natural to lean into pain, but, but knowing that you can absolutely do it if you prepare yourself for that, you know?
Kiona: 50:47
Yeah. 100%. And it’s just about preparation. And I feel like of your two experiences being so drastically different from one another, it really prepped you your second time around to, to, to focus on what you didn’t want. You know what I mean?
Kyle: 51:03
Mm-hmm.
Kiona: 51:04
Everybody works through and heals through their experiences in different ways. And I feel like with you you know, finding out that you were pregnant and then deciding, taking time to decide what path you were gonna take helped with, just like boosting your confidence over time, you know, and knowing that nobody was pushing you into making a decision, but giving you the time to do that.
Kyle: 51:25
Yeah. Yeah. It also just felt like, you know, I knew I was safe. I knew I had my team, my baby was cared for downstairs, you know, everything just aligned perfectly, and I felt, I just felt so, so ready to do the thing. And I, you know, the control is a big thing. I, I think when I think about, you know, the word that I have for labor, like the, the, the one takeaway for me, it is surrendered. And I mean, I’ve heard it a million times. It sounds a little cheesy when I say it, but. It’s true. You, you cannot control it. You have to, you have to move with the punches. You can prepare yourself in so many ways, and you should, you should prepare yourself and arm yourself with education, with knowledge but at the end of the day, you know, que sera sera
Kiona: 52:13
Mm-hmm. Yeah. And I love that. And I think the word surrender to describe labor and birth and even pregnancy
Kyle: 52:20
Mm-hmm.
Kiona: 52:20
is so real. And even though, you know, some people, like you just said that it sounds a little cheesy, but really it’s a reality. It is a strong reality that like, that’s, that’s what you kind of have to do. And some people would say like, let it go or letting go But surrender fully encompasses it all.
Kyle: 52:38
I mean, it could probably be set of parenthood too, or toddlerhood,
Kiona: 52:42
One 100%. Yeah. That is so true. one question I did have is you were talking about the care that you received and once you did make the decision to actually try for a VBAC at home, and you said you had to do extra ultrasounds to review that, you got the Okay. Usually, with VBACs there’s a certain amount of time between pregnancies that they would suggest. So how far apart were your pregnanciesKyle: 53:05
they’re 26 months apart.
Kiona: 53:07
Okay.
Kyle: 53:08
my kids are 26 months apart. So, I think that they, that the doctor had said that they wanted them at least two years apart. I knew, I know for some it’s more,
Kiona: 53:16
Yeah.
Kyle: 53:17
but you know, when they checked my uterus, it was strong and, and everything was good. So,
Kiona: 53:21
Nice. Yeah, I think that’s awesome. When did, you said you had a doula for both. Did your doula join you at home the second time around the same time your midwives did?
Kyle: 53:32
yes, they, they all got there right around the same time and Honestly, my, my husband was so hands-on, meaning when I say hands-on, I mean, he was by my side the entire time that I, when I kind of transitioned or at least started into active labor that, you know, she, I think she was mostly taking photos, but she also, she would offer me drinks. She would help coach my breathing and stuff. But Matt was really there for so much of the support. He, I think that he probably was working through a little trauma too. You know, his, he saw me in a lot of pain during Penny’s labor and, you know, he, he saw his partner say goodbye and think she was dying and, you know, all the things. And so I think that it was also a really healing experience for him to be able to, uh, be, be there for me.
Kiona: 54:23
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Goodness. Yeah. Partners perspectives are so important as well, you know, and I feel like partner perspectives aren’t heard, as much as they should be. So I think that, that it would be interesting to, you know, chat with partners to see how that is for them
Kyle: 54:41
that would be an awesome episode.
Kiona: 54:43
yeah, it would let’s plant him in there and say, Hey, let’s join the podcast
Kyle: 54:48
Yeah,
Kiona: 54:48
yeah. So I guess the, I have just a few final closing questions, but I feel like I can talk about this forever, which is really, really hard because when it comes to episodes like this, I’m like, I, I just wanna ask you so many questions and like all this stuff. So, um, one question I will ask that’s not part of the closing for is, at what point after your pregnancies and your births did you decide that you wanted to become a birth photographer?
Kyle: 55:16
I, so when I was pregnant with my second son, I actually started my doula certification training because I just, I had fallen so in love with the world of birth. You know, I, I think it also really helped, helped me heal some things. Um, in doing doula training and kind of meeting this community of doulas. I didn’t end up attending any births as a doula. Um, and so I didn’t move forward with that, because I think that just, I was super fatigued being pregnant, had my toddler, but I met, a very close friend of mine, Tiara, who is part of my, wildflower birth photographer’s photography team. She, sorry, she’s mother wolf photography. Anyway, so I met her and she kept telling me,’cause I’d been a photographer for years, you know, a family photographer. I had been, I had done senior portraits and headshots and I’d never really found my home in photography. I’d always just done it on the side, uh, for income, but never really loved, really loved doing any of the things I was doing. And Tiara kept telling me, you, you really need to You have such good mama energy, you need to come and do this with me. And I said, okay, well, you know, no one’s gonna hire me. I’ve never done anything. I, I need to have the birth experience. And so she actually let me attend a birth with her, a midwife in training, allowed me to come see, uh, her give birth. And so I shot alongside Tiara and my midwives, who are also her midwives, basically all of Tacoma loves our midwives. But, I just remember leaving that birth going, oh, okay. I found my home in photography. This is absolutely where I wanna be. And I’ve, gosh, this, that was probably five months ago when I’ve, shot six, six births in, in that time. So I’m still fledgling, I still don’t have, you know, a ton under my belt, but I was already such a skilled photographer that I really just needed to get the etiquette down, you know, and the, the lighting that, the kind of, some of the technical things, you know, because people are typically laboring in the dark. but I, but I’m obsessed. I’m absolutely obsessed and I, I love that it’s letting me raise my children and, and have this flexible income, but I also, it’s so much more than a job to me. I, I love that I get to support birthing people and empower them, and also if they need healing, I know firsthand how healing photos can be, you know?
Kiona: 57:46
So I just wanna say I did not know, and I’m actually surprised to hear that you have only been doing birth for five months. like to all the listeners out there, you guys better snatch her up because I was looking at some of your photos. Some of the photos that you have taken have literally told me, oh, ke you need to get pregnant again and have another baby so you can get photos like this. Because I am like, oh my God. Like, I can’t even tell you Kyle, like, I’m so serious. Your images are amazing. the way that you capture them
Kyle: 58:17
you are making me smile so much.
Kiona: 58:18
I’m, I’m mean, I’m not even kidding. I thought that you’ve been doing this for years. Like, so you definitely found your calling because
Kyle: 58:25
I did. I did. Thank you.
Kiona: 58:27
yeah, I was looking at some of the photos and I was just like, It really made me like say like, if I ever had another baby, Kyle, I’m calling you up and we’re gonna be doing this. yeah, very, very, very beautiful photos. So definitely you need to like, I’m gonna put your link down in the description
Kyle: 58:46
Oh, thank you. You’re amazing.
Kiona: 58:48
’cause you need to get, uh, booked up real quick’cause you’re gonna start getting super popular. I’m not even kidding. yes. So that is super amazing. and yeah, you did also kind of mention that you do also work with a photography team called the Wildflowers Birth Photography or just photography.
Kyle: 59:03
it’s the wildflower birth photographers.
Kiona: 59:05
Okay. Yeah, and there’s a set, a team of three from what I remember seeing on the website, so I think that’s awesome.
Kyle: 59:11
yeah. You know, we’re, we’re all three mamas and we went, we really need reliable backup and we need some support. And so we just kind of band together and we’re all just really passionate
Kiona: 59:20
Mm-hmm.
Kyle: 59:21
about this work. And, you know, it, it, it’s still very surreal that someone like wants to invite me into their birth space every time I’m going to a birth. And four out of the six have been with my own midwives, which it feels like even more of a gift. I get to be around these incredible women who are just doing really, really important work.
Kiona: 59:39
Mm-hmm..Yeah. Oh, I love it. I love it so much. okay. The final closing questions that I want to ask you… what is one piece of advice you would give to all pregnant people as they prepare for labor, birth and postpartum?
Kyle: 59:55
so I have I, I am not affiliated with them. With the podcast plug, I will literally, like, scream from the rooftops is I, I don’t care if you’ve had a, a cesarean or not if you’re a first time parent or not. The VBAC link helped me so much. I’ve probably listened to every single episode multiple times. It’s, I just feel like you, you can learn so much from people who have had things go a little sideways.
Kiona: 1:00:23
Mm-hmm.
Kyle: 1:00:24
and that’s not the case, obviously, with every cesarean. They’re not all, they’re not all equal. They’re not all for the same reasons, but I really feel like there were just so many important nuggets from those, those people’s stories. So, arm yourself, arm yourself with as much education as you can by, by listening to other people’s stories, by, on your podcast, listening to every birth story you can get your hands on.
Kiona: 1:00:45
Mm-hmm. Yeah. I 100% agree. And I’m not saying that just cause I’m a podcast host, like I’m saying that because stories literally give you so much education, and it’s one of the main reasons why I started this podcast is because you learn so much through people telling their stories and every single birth even from the individual as living examples, you’re myself and you each birth and pregnancy is different
Kyle: 1:01:10
Mm-hmm.
Kiona: 1:01:10
And so you can’t expect the same thing just cause you’re pregnant again. You know what I mean? so yeah, I agree with that. So that’s a great piece of advice. It’s just getting out there and getting education. I will definitely direct people to the VBAC Link podcast. Another question is, I mean, I guess you kind of just gave it, it was one piece of what resource what you do, or,
Kyle: 1:01:37
I, yeah, absolutely. And I think any podcast that has birth stories, get your hands on that. But I also think that Your team is the biggest deciding factor for, you know, a positive outcome in your birth story. Like the people that you decide to bring into your space that matters. not everyone needs a doula or a birth photographer or all, but, but if you do want to be supported and you do want the best team possible, like that’s, that’s really important.
Kiona: 1:02:09
Mm-hmm. Yeah, I agree 100%. and we already did touch on this a little bit, but I’d love to bring it back around is if you could describe your birth with one word you had said surrender.
Kyle: 1:02:21
Mm-hmm. Absolutely. Yeah.
Kiona: 1:02:24
Yeah. I again, I agree. It’s such a great word. and I realize now that we actually didn’t talk about your postpartum times with your babes. Um, did you, how did you feed, decide to feed your babes? Did you do breastfeed formula feeding
Kyle: 1:02:40
I am actually weaning my 17 month old right now. My, I, I don’t know if you’ve seen me, I keep clutching my boobs because I’m engorged. got my haka sitting next to me. I breastfed both my babes, for 17 months each. Actually, that was not planned. It just ended up that way. my daughter and I, we had a really rough start, you know, cesarean, I, I feel like cesarean babies, they, they can have a more challenging time with feeding, with dropping weight, with all sorts of things. We had a hospital, hospital staff kind of getting in the way of our, of our mojo, and that, that’s to put it gently, I guess. but we found our footing and it was such a gift to have such a, an amazing bonding experience with her and she weaned really easily. My son is absolutely obsessed with me. He would just be latched around the clock. He doesn’t even need me at this point, I feel like, but he just, he just wants me all the time. So he’s actually not here with me because we need a little bit of separation to help, to help things along. yeah, postpartum with Penny though, I think I, I think I kind of stuffed a lot of my feelings way down. And Penny and I had a great, a great first year. I, I stayed home from work with her. I got a ton of time with her and with my spouse who got his, his parental leave. it was great. I felt like such a good parent. She was always strapped on my back. I always, I wore her everywhere. We, we did everything together. And then when I had my son, it was a really, really, really hard transition going from one to two. Her and I were very, very connected, and it was a really, really hard, it was a real struggle for her to accept sharing, having to share me and accept having a little brother.
Kiona: 1:04:21
hmm.
Kyle: 1:04:22
Then when he was about four months old, she broke her leg and had to be casted up to the groin. And so my, oh, it was, it was atrocious. I don’t wish it upon anyone. And she just, she couldn’t move. She was immobile and she was mad. She was mad at me for having a baby. She was mad that she couldn’t, you know, move and do all the things she wanted to do. And I really struggled a lot with, like, I I say postpartum depression as like the umbrella, but really specifically, I, I struggled with postpartum rage, pretty badly. And I think I did honestly till my son was almost about nine months old. I still have moments where, you know, it kind of peaks, peaks up when I’m not making sure my bucket is full, you know? But there, I, I’ve done a lot of things to kind of work through that…
Kiona: 1:05:06
That’s so real. I, I can 100% say that you’re not the only person that has gone through that experience of having that transition, especially from one to two. With the first babe being like, what the heck is this thing? You know, like, no, you’re taking mom from me. What? Like, I don’t like you at all. Get away. And then for her to break her leg and have such a hard time on top of that, she was going through her own little version of postpartum rage and not being able to
Kyle: 1:05:33
yeah.
Kiona: 1:05:34
regulate those emotions. And so that is so real. And I also wanna say just to one, again, validate your experience, but two, to validate my own is the fact that postpartum is forever. Okay? You are always postpartum. I feel like people are always trying to put this limit on when postpartum is like, oh, the, the first seven weeks, or the first year, or the first seven years even like postpartum is forever. You are never biologically the same. And you are continuing to work through whatever it is that parenting has brought upon you or upon us in, in these aspects. So postpartum rage is for real.
Kyle: 1:06:14
That’s a really good reminder because, you know, he, he’s 17 months old in a week and like, I’m still struggling with these emotions. I’m is what is going on with me It’s a really good thing to voice and remember.
Kiona: 1:06:24
It really is. And then also, you know, just, just to put this out there as a birth photographer, you go into other people’s spaces where their hormones and emotions are vulnerable. And, whether we believe it or not, you’re stepping in and you’re absorbing some of that energy too. And, you know, bringing that home with you. And also, you know, my husband used to tell me when I was a really strongly active birth doula, that you give the best to your clients and then you come home and you’re just mean. And I was like, Ugh. That’s hard to hear, because when you’re in the other space, you’re just like, oh yeah. Like you really are giving all of your positive energy away
Kyle: 1:07:03
Well, when you’re, you’re running off, your endorphins are just wild in that space, right. I I always feel like I’m riding a cloud, like when I, when I leave a birth. But, you know, for me, for me, it has all really come down to being overstimulated in motherhood. I never. I never anticipated this. I was a kindergarten teacher for like five years, like never got overstimulated in a classroom of, you know, thirty 5-year-olds. But, you know, the, the constant being, the constant being touched and talked to, and the noises and everything. I, I, I honestly, I wear headphones like this a lot because it just dampens the sound a little bit for me, and I’m able to be that more kind. And patient mama, you know.
Kiona: 1:07:41
Mm-hmm. Yeah. And I mean, not to put a plug or anything, I am not affiliated with this company whatsoever, but I have been going through the same kind of thing with that overstimulation. There’s always dogs barking, there’s always a loud tv. There’s always kids screaming at each other. There’s always someone needing me in some kind of way. I recently, literally last week, purchased these earplugs called Loop. It is called Loop, and I got them and they are actually kind of, I wouldn’t necessarily say life changing yet, but they have definitely made me more patient with my kids.
Kyle: 1:08:20
Yeah, no, Instagram got me too, and I bought them and then I lost them promptly in two days. So if you do order them, put them in their little travel case when you’re not wearing them.
Kiona: 1:08:29
Which is still pretty tiny. There
Kyle: 1:08:31
know.
Kiona: 1:08:31
some way for it to not be so tiny, but
Kyle: 1:08:34
Honestly, my 17 month old, he just. Picks everything up and puts it like through the cat doors. And so I’ll probably find them one day that he’s just put them somewhere.
Kiona: 1:08:42
Yeah. But they’re, they’re pretty cool. Um, they did help me and continue to help me. I think theirs are gonna be like my pocket warmers basically just sitting
Kyle: 1:08:50
Yeah. That’s smart.
Kiona: 1:08:52
Yeah. Anyways, outside of that real, real side rail there, I just wanted to say I really, really, really truly do appreciate you sharing your stories with me, and I think that you are a badass parent and a badass photographer. Like I said, I promise you I’m not even trying to just like hype you up. You are really good at what you
Kyle: 1:09:13
You are amazing. Thank you,
Kiona: 1:09:14
You really are.
Kyle: 1:09:16
I, I wanna thank you for letting me be on here. Honestly, writing out my notes to share with you and then actually sharing with you has felt like a whole nother level of healing for me too. And that’s, that’s really important.’cause I feel like, you know, it’s kind of continuing work that we have to do to work through trauma and things like that. So. So thank you for that opportunity.
Kiona: 1:09:34
Yeah, absolutely. And I want you to know that when people come in and listen to your story, there’s gonna be healing process in them. Just hearing your story, especially if they have a similar experience. To be able to relate to others is also very healing. So thank you for being vulnerable with me today and I appreciate it.
Kyle: 1:09:54
Yeah. Thank you. Bye guys.
Kiona: 1:09:56
Bye. This interview with Kyle truly pulled so many of my emotional strings, because I could relate to her in so many different ways at different levels. And. It felt good to hear her story and see myself. Within parts of her story. As well as hearing her story and hearing her vulnerability and hearing how different her two births were. I was also truly surprised when she had said that her husband had told her that she didn’t make a sound in the O.R., and for her to have such a real, emotional and physically trying experience in the O.R. for it to not be seen on the outside is so incredibly jarring to me. With that said I still 100% validate that what she experienced was true to her and it is within her body. It is in her blood. It is in her overall biology that that experience was true. So Kyle, I just want to say thank you so much again for sharing both of your birth stories. And I am so amazed again at how amazing of a birther geographer you are. And I really, really am excited for people to start seeking your services because your photos will tell a story in themselves and help people heal through their own experiences as well. So thanks again. If you feel similarly about this story, as well as other episodes on this podcast, please leave a review. I would love to share how you’re feeling with the world so that everybody else can get your input on what this podcast is doing for you. For next week’s episode, I had the opportunity to interview Macy Blakemore. She is a student of authentic midwifery, lover of philosophy. And she identifies as a wonder and wanderer. And she is also the mother to a five-and-a-half-year-old at the time of this episode recording. So tune in next week to hear about her personal birth story.
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