Description:
In this episode,Taylor talks about how the language barrier she experienced impacted how she was cared for during her pregnancy and birth in France, how after giving birth the first time around changed her expectations for her subsequent births, in addition to touching on some of the physical struggle and the advocating she had to do with breastfeeding, especially the first time around.
Disclaimer: This podcast is intended for educational purposes only with no intention of giving or replacing any medical advice. I, Kiona Nessenbaum, am not a licensed medical professional. All advice that is given on the podcast is from the personal experience of the storytellers. All medical or health-related questions should be directed to your licensed provider.
Resources:
- The Birth Partner-Penny Simkin
- Perinatal Support of Washington: https://perinatalsupport.org/
- Postpartum Support International: https://www.postpartum.net
Definitions:
- Blood Clot
- Membrane/Cervical Sweep
- Different Eating Disorders
- Body Dysmorphia
- Nuchal Translucency Scan
- Different Trisomies
- Lip-Tie
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Transcription of Episode 36:
Kiona: 0:07
Hello, and welcome to Birth As We Know It. I am your podcast host, Kiona Nessenbaum. I have experienced birth as a doula, a student midwife, and as a mother of three amazing children with my husband and high school sweetheart by my side. After attending over 130 births, including my own, I’ve realized that each birth experience is truly unique. So make sure you subscribe and join me every week as we are guided through many different birth experiences through the lens of the storyteller. Please be aware that some of the stories can be triggering to hear, so feel free to pause, take a breath, and come back and listen whenever you’re ready. With that said, let’s prep ourselves to dive deep and get detailed about what really happens in the birth space. As a reminder, this podcast is intended for educational purposes only, and has no intention of giving or replacing any medical advice. All advice that is given on the podcast is from the personal experiences of the storytellers. All medical or health related questions should be directed to your licensed provider. Before we dive deep into the episode I want to give you a little bit of a heads up that some of the audio is a little crackly. And it changes halfway through because her headphones died. But please bear with me throughout the episode. I did the best I could with editing. But the story is truly amazing and you will love it. I promise. I also want to share another podcast review.. with you This one is from Mfhamp18. The title is soothing, informational and interesting with a rating of five stars. And this person writes this podcast is binge-worthy. Can’t wait to hear more birthing stories. I’m currently pregnant and listening to these stories is great. It gives me insight on how different every pregnancy is, even for one mother on multiple births. Insane! I love listening to these. Please keep sharing. Can’t wait to listen more. Thank you so much, Mfhamp18. I’m super excited that you’re enjoying the podcast. I truly appreciate the review. Thank you. All right, let’s get into the episode. Hello, everybody, and welcome back to the Birth As We Know It podcast. I am super excited and very honored to be able to have reached an old friend of mine. We actually played basketball together a really, really long time ago. We were young ones. I think the last time I actually saw her face was when we were in eighth grade, but I have Taylor Montgomery on the podcast today, and she is the mother of three beautiful boys. So welcome, Taylor. Thanks for being on the podcast.
Taylor: 2:54
Yeah, thanks for having me. I’m glad to be here. I love this idea of a podcast, so I’m very excited to contribute in any way that I can.
Kiona: 3:02
Yeah. And I think it’s super exciting to actually be able to connect with you as well because you are currently in Africa.
Taylor: 3:09
Right. Yeah, we live in Mauritania in Northwest Africa, like right under Morocco.
Kiona: 3:16
That’s so cool. I am not going to lie, I am not super good with geography. But I know where Africa is on the map.
Taylor: 3:23
Hey, well, you are ahead of, I would say, quite a few people then, so you’re good. I didn’t, I didn’t actually know that it was even a country when I moved here, so it’s, it’s alright. Yeah, most people don’t know where it is.
Kiona: 3:35
Yeah. Ugh. Well, good. I’m not alone. but yeah, let’s go ahead and dive in. So how about you start off by telling us a little about yourself and who’s in your family?
Taylor: 3:45
Okay, well, like you said, I’m Taylor, and we, so there’s my husband and I have three boys, and I met my husband here in Mauritania in 2017, we played volleyball together at the French Embassy. And he’s from France, he’s French. And, yeah, we met there, and fell madly in love. And then, we had our babies pretty quickly after we met, actually. So, I’m a high school science teacher, and I’m also doing my masters in public health right now through Johns Hopkins. So, yeah, that’s us.
Kiona: 4:24
That’s awesome. And so how old are your sons?
Taylor: 4:28
Oh yeah, so there’sÉly, he is four. Ira is two and a half. And Eugène, or Gene, was just born on September 10th, so he’s almost six weeks.
Kiona: 4:41
Oh, I love that. And just knowing that you have three glorious boys, do any of the rumors about being a mom of boys ring true to you?
Taylor: 4:51
I mean. So I have two little cousins that I spend a lot of time with and they’re both girls and I definitely see a difference between little girls the way that they were, you know, they can sit and like let’s make some necklaces andÉly’s like Mom, there was a thief and he stole our food and now we have to get him pow pow pow like making these crazy noises And all that it’s just very yeah, I’m sure yeah Yeah, it’s, I can see the differences, so, but it’s great. I like having, all boys. It’s wild. I think there’s gonna be a lot of broken bones, but it’s okay.
Kiona: 5:28
I love that. I love that. Oh, that is so awesome. so before we dive deep into any of your pregnancies or births, had you ever attended a birth prior to your own?
Taylor: 5:42
No, I, I mean, I grew up, I grew up in Central Washington on a kind of a farm, so I’d seen animals give birth, but never a human. So, and I mean, I was there at the hospital when my mom gave birth, but not I don’t, I wish I could have been in the room, but, no, I was not, I have not, had not been a part of any of birth’s, but my own up to this point.
Kiona: 6:06
Yeah. I think that, like, let’s not discredit the fact that you watched animals give birth because that in itself is a process as well.
Taylor: 6:14
Right.
Kiona: 6:15
I am not a farmer’s daughter or anything like that, but I watch animals give birth online. it’s definitely interesting. And I’m like, Oh, there’s the amniotic sac. There’s the umbilical cord. Like, I can’t believe this animal is like walking already two minutes after being born, you know, like the differences. Yeah.
Taylor: 6:39
That me of my, my grandma told me this story about this woman that she knew that also was raised on a farm and saw a lot of animal births. And when she herself became pregnant, she asked her mother, when the baby’s eyes would open. Because she had only seen like dogs and cats when their eyes were all closed. You know, when they are born. So she asked her mom when her baby’s eyes would open. Her mom was like, oh, honey.
Kiona: 7:02
Yeah.
Taylor: 7:02
But, anyway,
Kiona: 7:03
It’s crazy though. Cause you don’t think about that, you know, like birth is birth,
Taylor: 7:07
Right.
Kiona: 7:08
but, its different for every species. Like, we’re humans. How odd would it be if humans laid eggs and had to, like, keep them warm? It’s just,
Taylor: 7:22
Hey man, I don’t know, part of me might be okay with that after going through some of these pregnancy symptoms. If I just had to sit and chill on some eggs, that’d be alright. Maybe.
Kiona: 7:32
Yeah, maybe. I would be worried about squishing them or something.
Taylor: 7:36
that’s true. The anxiety.
Kiona: 7:37
But, yeah. It’d be a whole different thing. A
Taylor: 7:40
Yeah.
Kiona: 7:41
whole different layer of things to worry about. Ugh. But, anyways, let’s go back to human birth, and, let’s go ahead and dive into your conception. So, were you planning to conceive when you conceived your first?
Taylor: 7:56
Absolutely not. I had only been with my husband, Whose name is François. I’d only been with him for, I think it was eight months. And so, I followed, kind of followed my period on a, an app, but only kind of. And I also, I, I hadn’t been on birth control since 2016, because in 2016, I broke my leg, and they had put me, they put me in this brace, and whatever, it was a whole combination of things, and I got a blood clot, and then it went to my lungs, so they told me not to take hormonal birth control again, I tried an IUD, and it was terrible, and, anyway, so I didn’t, wasn’t on birth control. We had, you know, sex, unprotected sex, and, oops, and after that, I took Plan B, immediately, this, like, within 20 minutes, and then, three weeks later, I realized while I was drinking coffee that the coffee was disgusting. And so it was then that I realized, well I didn’t realize, but I was like, when did I last my period? I should look at that. It’s been 12 days that it’s overdue. I didn’t realize. Okay, well, maybe I should, I told François, we should, let’s just get a pregnancy test. I mean, that would be crazy, right? Like I did plan B. That’s insane. It would never, I would, it should not be pregnant. Let’s just, but just in case, like, let’s get one. So we bought one single pregnancy test and then we were going, I didn’t even do it right away because I was so sure, like, no, there’s no way I’m just being, I’ve been, I traveled a little, I was stressed. So we were gonna go to the beach and I had, we bought the pregnancy test and then went to the beach with no intention of doing it right then, just for later, whatever. And we’re driving to the beach and there’s this super bumpy road and I was like, Oh my gosh, I really, I need to pee. Can you like, pull over really quick? And so he pulls over on the side of this dirt road in the middle of the Sahara Desert, and I was like, well, since I’m going, I’m just gonna do my pregnancy test. So I’m squatting in the middle of a set. I literally, I’m not kidding, I have a picture of it. I looked up and there was a little camel. Like, there’s always camels walking around. There’s a little camel looking at me peeing. I was like, that’s hilarious. Look at that cute camel as I’m peeing on a pregnancy test. we get, I finish and get back in the car. We finish and get to the beach. Like, two minutes later, and I look, and there is a super strong line. It’s like, I don’t, do I know how to read pregnancy tests? I look at the box, it’s like, just staring at it in complete shock. Like, shocked. I, I’m literally getting goosebumps saying that because I remember how that was like, holy crap, what has just happened. This can’t be real. So, we didn’t go to the beach. We immediately turned right back around and went and got more pregnancy tests. Like, four more pregnancy tests. Did all of them. Obviously, all positive. so, no. Definitely not planned. And, We spent the next two weeks, you know, we had only been together eight months and it wasn’t a question, like, I was trying to decide, are we going to have, we were trying to decide, are we going to have this baby or not, and I had never been pregnant, I had never been with someone that I thought that it would be okay to get pregnant with, and so, It wasn’t a question of, oh, I’ve only been with François eight months, because it wasn’t, that didn’t even cross my mind. It was more like, our lives are going to completely change. I can’t, I don’t know if I’m ready for that. I’ve only really just started traveling. I just moved to Mauritania, like, I don’t know. I don’t know what to do, and it was two weeks, every night we were talking, like, hours, and we drew this scale, one side was don’t have a baby, the other side was have a baby, and there was a part in the middle, and we would make a mark on it every day about where we were feeling, like, should we have a baby, should we not. I knew, like, from that moment that I found out that I was pregnant, whatever I chose, it was never ever going to be the same in my life. Like whether I chose to have an abortion or I chose to have a baby, it’s like, there’s big, two big changes happen. Like one, one change is happening just based on what I decide. And François like, when I was thinking about it I’m so glad that I had that person with me. Like, I don’t think that that could have, I couldn’t have gone through something like that. It was, it’s horrible. Trying to decide if you’re going to have a baby or not is something that I’d hope that, you know, I wouldn’t wish that on anyone. It’s horrible, it’s really hard when you didn’t do it on purpose. And then I started getting into this existential crisis of I’m in Mauritania, like, what about all these women who are accidentally pregnant and they don’t have the options, they don’t have the choice, but they’re, yeah, anyway, so I was, it was a lot of feelings, but I’m glad that it was François, because I couldn’t have made that decision, without François. It’s impossible that I could have done that by myself, so..Anyway, eventually we decided, let’s do it! Let’s haveÈly! Didn’t know he wasÈly at the time, but. Anyway, yeah. So, long answer to your small question. No, wasn’t planning on having a baby.
Kiona: 13:05
No. Yeah. I mean, I absolutely love your process of connecting with François about that because being able to sit with this person who you made a baby with and to have like an actual like adult conversation about it. And the reason why I’m saying an adult conversation is because there are plenty of people out there who are automatically like, I’m not ready. We’re not doing this. No, you know, and then they’re not really, I, so. What I’m basically trying to say is it sounds like you and Francois had so much connection with one another that you cared strongly enough about each other’s opinions and how your feelings were and really diving deep and connecting as a couple as well as two individuals on how this decision will change your life.
Taylor: 13:55
It was really like, and I, yeah, I can’t imagine having to do that alone. It’s impossible. I really don’t, I needed his like logic and his rationality and his, and he was so supportive. Like it wasn’t even, I mean, he was of course like, I took his opinions into consideration obviously because it would change his life. We knew that we were going to stay together. Like we’d only been together eight months, but it’s like definitely that was the person that I’ll spend my life with, you know, like I knew it right, like the first week I knew it. So it wasn’t, Like I didn’t, I was worried about him leaving. It wasn’t, I’m glad that wasn’t even on the table, but I took his opinions into account, but he was so like, it’s hundred percent your choice, unfortunately. It was really beautiful. It was beautiful. It was a very, very hard but very beautiful decision.
Kiona: 14:39
Yeah. I love that so much. I also just love the visual of you squatting on the side of the road in the Sahara Desert, staring at a little camel, peeing on the stick.
Taylor: 14:53
Yeah, it sounds like something you make up. I know how it sounds but that’s truly like, that’s what happened. I love that I can tell Èly that someday.
Kiona: 15:03
Yeah. Oh, that’s so awesome. Who knows? Maybe the camel is like his spirit animal or something.
Taylor: 15:08
Right? That’s a good point.
Kiona: 15:10
Yeah.
Taylor: 15:11
Didn’t think of it like that.
Kiona: 15:14
And so how was your overall pregnancy withÈly? Did you have any symptoms? Were you nauseous? Did you get diagnosed with any hypertension or anything like that?
Taylor: 15:28
Because I’d had a blood clot in 2016, they made me take Lovinox, blood thinner. So I had to, I have given myself injections every day forÈly’s pregnancy, Ira’s pregnancy, and just now Eugene’s. So, that was the only thing that was, you know, honestly Yeah, I don’t think it was. I mean, my medical opinion was that it was my, I don’t have any credentials to say this, but I feel like it was a freak accident. And it was really just a combination of things. So I didn’t probably need to take it during pregnancy. But once you’ve had a blood clot, when you’re pregnant, your chances of getting another one go way up. So, that’s why. It was just precautionary. as far as symptoms go, the only thing I really remember withÈly that was, because it was so bad, was constipation. It was so bad, and at one point, when we were in France, I had not gone to the bathroom. I don’t know if it was purely pregnancy or if it was also the fact that I was living with my mother in law that maybe contributed. And the anxiety of not having our own house, I’ll get to that later, but, Yeah, it was 15 days that I had not gone to the bathroom. Yeah, I know. And I decided to tell, I know, it’s insane. And I decided to tell François on day 14. He’s like, we need to go to the doctor immediately. I was like, yeah. So we went to the doctor, an emergency room, because my stomach was so painful. This is like, This was my first real experience being like, WTF, French doctors. You guys, there’s something different about you. He insisted that he needed to examine me, give a digital examination to ensure that I was constipated. I’m like, dude, I haven’t pooped in 15 days. You don’t need to check. And so, but I, I, this is like the recurring theme in my pregnancy withÈly and my labor and birth with him. I didn’t know anything, right? You know, you don’t know during your first, so I was like, yeah, okay, I guess, check me, well, that’s weird, I don’t know why you need to do that, and so he did, and he’s like, oh, yes, you’re very constipated, oh, thank you so much for, like, why, why are you, that’s weird, anyway, yep, so that was fun, that was my, that was, that was truly awful, that was the number one symptom I remember withÈly, like, just horrible, And it was terrible. Yeah, it was terrible. other than that, I don’t remember. I kind of had some issues with, gaining weight, because I struggled with… body image issues and eating disorders when I was a little younger and kind of still right before I started, I got pregnant withÈly. Like it wasn’t gone. so that weight gain was really hard for me and like forcing myself to eat. And there were points where I like, yeah, that was the mental struggle of that was, kind of intense, but that wasn’t really a, I don’t know if that’s a symptom or not, but it was a struggle I had.
Kiona: 18:33
Yeah, no, I think that that is fair, even though that’s not technically, I wouldn’t technically categorize that as, like, a common pregnancy symptom, but I will say 100 percent there are other people that struggle with the same thing. You know, kind of like body image, body dysmorphia, like, not really understanding, or not even necessarily understanding, but… not really being prepared for the changes that are happening in your body and then knowing that they’re happening for a reason, but trying to, I feel like, I personally hadn’t struggled with that, but when I was talking to clients, they would kind of say that the struggle of it is like knowing that your body’s changing for a good reason because you’re growing a human, but at the same time, you’re looking at yourself in the mirror and seeing someone different.
Taylor: 19:22
Yeah,
Kiona: 19:23
Yeah, it’s real. It’s a real
Taylor: 19:26
Yeah, like, I know that I have to eat. I know that I want to eat, right? I want to be a good home for my little growing baby, but it’s, when you’ve struggled with that, it’s hard to watch your body change like that. And I don’t think that’s, people never, I mean, that’s not something I’d ever heard of, you know, like, and so I felt guilty, like, why do I feel bad about gaining weight? I shouldn’t you know, so
Kiona: 19:48
Yeah.
Taylor: 19:49
it was better with consecutive pregnancies and with Gene it actually was gone So and I feel like that’s through pregnancy. I’ve kind of like lost. I have not lost. I’ve healed from The body image issues that I’ve had and the eating problems that I’ve had I don’t have that at all actually even postpartum right now with Gene. I’m like This is how it is. This is who I am.
Kiona: 20:11
Yeah. Oh, I love that for you though. I really do. And I hope that some of the listeners that may be struggling with that kind of see a potential light at the end of the tunnel knowing that, you know, you could potentially just see it through the lens of a parent and how powerful your body is versus how much your body is changing.
Taylor: 20:29
exactly
Kiona: 20:31
Yeah. Aw. Yay. okay, oh, I did have a question about the constipation. What was it that the doctor found as a solution? Like, did he just prescribe you laxatives or did they have to, like, this might sound really bad, did they have to, like, literally unplug you? Like what was,
Taylor: 20:52
It doesn’t sound bad because I thought that’s what they were gonna have to do It’s like I can’t go to the emergency room because they’re gonna have to scoop poop out of my butt or something horrible I was so scared no, so what they did is he gave me a suppository well, he didn’t give it he told me to go buy it at the pharmacy and then That’s François I had been together like over a year at that point in my pregnancy, and I was like, François, I cannot reach over my big belly to give myself this suppository, you have to do it, I’m so sorry. And I was like, aw, see, I made the right choice, he does love me, this is the worst ever. If I had known, please, it’s been way worse than that since then, but, yeah. So they gave me a suppository, and that fixed it. But then I had to like, I really, I started drinking way more water. I was drinking so much, but I had to drink, I was drinking like three liters of water a day or something crazy, and we started walking like every night for almost two hours every night, we were going for these long walks, and I think that did help a bit, but I still struggled with it, but not to that extent, where I needed a French doctor to tell me how constipated I was by, you know,
Kiona: 22:02
Right.
Taylor: 22:02
Examination. Thanks dude.
Kiona: 22:03
Right. Yeah. But then, I mean, it sounds like you having that experience, bleh, you know, you found a solution by going through that, but so was using suppository something that you kind of kept semi regular throughout your pregnancy to prevent it from continuing to just get worse?
Taylor: 22:24
no, I didn’t, I used it one time, and then from then on, I just, upped my water intake and walked a lot like that was but the main changes that those were the main changes I Made and that was it but and then with Ira and Gene I did not have that problem any more than I think you know I’m not what I would consider normal constipation in pregnancy. I had that with Ira maybe a little with Gene, but Yeah, not with Èly.
Kiona: 22:55
Yeah. But what is normal? You know,
Taylor: 22:57
Right. I mean fifth It wasn’t 15 days with Ira and Jean is what I mean by that.
Kiona: 23:02
Yes. Oh God. Thankfully so.
Taylor: 23:06
Yes, that was the worst, but anyway,
Kiona: 23:13
so were there any things that you did throughout your pregnancy to help prepare you for labor and birth since this was your first time around?
Taylor: 23:21
So, I read, I think I read the, maybe you know the name, The Birth Partner. It’s an orange book. It’s for doulas, I think. Or for anyone who’s a partner. Yeah. I read that. To be my own partner, I guess. I don’t know. it was a great, I was glad I read that book. It was helpful. and I read a hypnobirthing book. I don’t remember the name but, I read some stuff. I was obviously like researching constantly. but I didn’t take a Lamaze class. I thought, I thought I was mentally preparing myself, yeah. That was it, I think.
Kiona: 24:04
I mean, reading books is definitely better than going in blind.
Taylor: 24:07
Right. Yeah, for sure.
Kiona: 24:09
So when you found out you were pregnant or I guess I should say, at what point in your pregnancy did you decide where you were wanting to birth? Or did you think about whether it was going to be a hospital birth, home birth, birth center, anything like that?
Taylor: 24:21
my question was more like, which continent will I have the baby on? Cause we had to decide with all of my babies, I’ve given birth to all three of them in France. We were living, we’ve lived in Mauritania almost this, this whole time. The last five years. so when I found out I was pregnant withÈly, it was pretty obvious to François and I both that we could not, I could not, give birth here because the state of the healthcare system is just not good in Mauritania, and it’s, I’m obviously super lucky enough to be able to get, go somewhere else where it is better healthcare system. I was like three months pregnant, three or four maybe, when we left Mauritania to go, we went to America first and then we went to France and I was gonna give birth in France and in France, they actually, this is crazy, I just looked this up, there are Less than, I want to say less than 20 birth centers, and individual midwives who will do home births are, there’s like 80 of them in the country, in the whole country. so it’s totally, it’s very, very medicalized in France, and that’s not something that I think most, Of us as Americans would think because it’s Europe and it’s, you know, everybody there are free and open and more natural. And I mean, that was, those were my stereotypes are of them, but it’s actually highly medicalized. Like, I think probably more so than the States in some ways. so the only option I had was to give birth, it wasn’t the only option, but it was the only option I knew of at the time. Now that I’ve given birth in the hospital, I know that I could travel to a birth center, but there’s like huge, long wait lists and this massive application process. And, anyway, so I had to give birth at the hospital for all of them.
Kiona: 26:12
I think that’s so interesting with you saying that it’s actually highly medicalized in France because, you know, I think that they’re, with me, you know, not being really good with geography, not really knowing much history or really doing much research on other countries that is very interesting to know that it’s more medicalized in France and that there’s only 80 midwives in the whole country.
Taylor: 26:36
I mean, there’s not only 80 midwives. There’s 80 midwives who will, are licensed, not even licensed, who will do a home birth. Other than that, there’s like, there’s thousands and thousands of midwives. Ira was born with a midwife and Gene was born with a midwife in the hospital. So, they actually rely heavily on midwives in the hospital setting, but the individual, like, they’re called, free midwives. Liberated is actually, the translation is funny. In France, there are only 80 who will go to the home, someone’s home, and do a home birth, or work in birthing centers. It was something like 80, I think. I can’t remember exactly. I might be, yeah.
Kiona: 27:13
Okay, yeah, that makes sense. So like a, like, hospital midwives, like, here in America, they’re called certified nurse midwives. I don’t know what they’re called in France, but hospital midwives, yeah, that makes sense. Because I was going to say there are many countries. I am aware that there are many countries that rely heavily on, like, that have midwifery kind of be the forefront for pregnant families and pregnant people, and unless they’re like extremely high risk and risk out and need to be with an OB or something.
Taylor: 27:43
Yep.
Kiona: 27:44
so that’s interesting. Okay.
Taylor: 27:48
right. Yeah.
Kiona: 27:50
Let’s start diving into what it was like when you were near the end of your pregnancy and when you had signs that labor was beginning. How were you feeling? Where were you? All the things.
Taylor: 28:05
so I think my first this is imminent, moment was I started to lose my mucus plug, and it came out in as it does for some people, in pieces over, I think, two or three days. And it was one, I now know for sure, like, no doubt that my OB that I was seeing, swept my membranes without my consent, and that’s what caused this to happen, because later I found out that they all do that. I had a midwife tell me that every time we do a cervical check after 39 weeks, we just sweep the membranes, and it’s like, but do you like Say that you’re gonna do that or ask like, no,no. It’s just it’s just you know, it’s because it’s not sure We don’t know for sure that it’s gonna start labor. I’m like, hmm. Okay, so this is kind of right I don’t know This was like I’m sure of that because the consent issue in France is a little strange too, which I can talk more about later but so I started to lose my mucus plug and then On, I think it was Friday night, I was like, Oh, that was kind of painful. It felt like a little, you know, just a little period cramp or something. and then it stopped. Saturday morning, we were doing something for my French visa, and I started having kind of more consistent cramping, and so we went to the doctor, because, cute little Taylor, she had no idea what was coming, but she’s like, maybe I’m starting this, maybe this is it! And it was, you know, it was the start, but it was, I was two centimeters dilated, and it was nothing compared to what it was going to be, and so they sent me home. I didn’t sleep that night because it’s just really slowly, slowly, slowly got, more painful closer together as it does. I think I was so tired. I was sleeping like 10 minutes at a time, five minutes, seven, and then nine minutes at a time. And then eight minutes at a time, between contractions and they weren’t super painful. They just were enough to wake me up. I took a shower for so long because it was on my back. It was right on my tailbone. that I didn’t, but that first withÈly, I didn’t really feel anything, almost nothing in like in the front., It was all back labor. anyway, took a shower for so long with the water just on my tailbone. It went cold and I was like, well, I guess we should go to the hospital now. so I woke my husband up and we went and I was at five centimeters and in France at the hospitals they have, I don’t know if they have this, maybe they do in the States. They have like what’s called a, like a natural room is what they call it. I don’t know if that’s, yeah, that’s the closest translation I have, which is for the women who, decided they want to try to labor or to not have an epidural.
Kiona: 30:54
Hmm.
Taylor: 30:55
that’s what so there’s like a bed, there’s a bath, there’s a, those at this, this hospital withÈly, there were like, these, things hanging from the. Ceiling, like to lean on, like to cloth, kind of cords that to lean on yoga ball, stuff like this. So I went in there and I got in the bath, and it was the first time that in almost 24 hours. I was like, oh my god, I could like finally like, okay, I’m gonna relax, chill out. And I slept a little bit in the bath. and then a midwife came in at around 11 probably, so we’d been there for 5, 4 or 5 hours. And she checked me and I was still only at 5 centimeters. And she’s like, your labor’s not progressing fast enough, so we need to break your water. I’m like, what? Like, I didn’t, I had written a birth plan, and I really did not want to have any interventions, as long as it was safe, you know, as long as I could avoid it. I did not want, I wanted it to be all… all me…so, and now looking back, like, to me, that seems it’s not like my water had broken. Right? Like, there was no, to me, no, I mean, his heart was fine. They kept monitoring and monitoring and he’s fine. There was no need to do that. And there’s no need to. Asked me to do that, except you want me to hurry up.
Kiona: 32:21
right,
Taylor: 32:22
So, which I, I think that happens a lot in the States too, right?
Kiona: 32:25
Yes
Taylor: 32:26
and I think that was some, it does all the time. And that’s something that’s, it’s probably worse in the States because this is a public hospital in France, which they have universal health care. So it was free. But in a hospital like in the States where it’s every second is a dollar, is money. That’s probably worse there. But this kind of like. Knocked me out of my I don’t know. I was like, you know in the zone. I was feeling better I was feeling like okay, I’m kind of got some rest. I like I think I can it’s gonna be okay now Cuz I was feeling kind of like oh dang. This is this is a long time. Why isn’t this baby coming out? so when she said that I was like, I really don’t want to do that and Looking back. I didn’t need to do that and So I, I asked her, can I go for a walk? Can we try to walk around? Can I try something else? Cause I really don’t want to do that. So we walked around and I only walked for like 30 minutes and I had barely slept that night and barely slept in the bath. I did feel a little better, but also I had barely slept. So I was exhausted and I, I walked for 30 minutes and I was like, okay, like I can’t, I gotta, whatever, fine. Okay. So she won. I let her break my water. And I was so stressed about it. Like, poor Taylor. Like, aw, looking back, I’m like, oh, that’s so sad. Like, I wish this Taylor could have been with that Taylor and been like, no, it’s okay. You can do it. Don’t have to do that.
Kiona: 33:50
mm-Hmm.
Taylor: 33:51
like, when I said I prepared for labor, I was like, yeah, kind of, like, with two books, whatever. Like, that’s something I didn’t prepare for. Like, needing to advocate for myself. And I didn’t prepare my husband for that either. Like, needing to… You just don’t know, you know, so when, when that was an issue, I didn’t know how to say like, no, basically. Like, so she broke my water and she immediately was like, Oh, and I didn’t speak French at the time. So my husband was translating everything and. She told us it looks kind of brown. So she was worried. I think that there was meconium in the water and there wasn’t, but she was concerned. It was a little, it just didn’t look completely normal anyway, they were monitoring him, he was fine. But after that it really started picking up, and I started throwing up. I did not know that that was even possible, to throw up that much. I threw up probably 25 or 30 times in the next two hours. It was crazy,
Kiona: 34:59
like, you think about, do I even have all of the, like, how do I even have this much stuff in my system? Like, and most of it’s probably just bio over and over again because you emptied yourself out.
Taylor: 35:09
yes, exactly, my teeth were feeling like sensitive because it was just bile, it was just stomach acid, it was terrible. That was rough. And I was sitting on a yoga ball, and sweet, sweet François is holding this little hospital bean shaped bowls over my mouth, changing them every five pukes. It was not what I had in mind, not what I thought it would be like. and then the midwife, she checked me again, like, after an hour, and she’s like, You’re only at a six. And I was like, Girl, you gotta leave me alone. Like, please stop. She suggested that I sat on, like, got on all fours, because I was having the back pain. Like, it was, it felt like it was breaking, my tailbone was breaking. Like, it was so intense. And I feel like you said something interesting on, I listened to your birth story, with your first, I think. I think you said something about her position?
Kiona: 36:06
It wasn’t necessarily her position in my story. It was that I had a cervical lip but, you may be thinking of, potentially a d Yes. Yeah. occiput
Taylor: 36:17
you.
Kiona: 36:18
Exactly. No, that’s totally fine. So, I, this whole time, Taylor, I’m telling you, I was literally gonna, like, try to find a moment in your story to be like, did they happen to say if he was, like, sunny side up or occiput posterior, which means, his face is toward your stomach versus your back.
Taylor: 36:37
Right, we were both looking the same way. I couldn’t remember if it was that or yeah What we’re talking about is sunny side up. Definitely. I forgot about that Yes, so after that, I think he must have turned or something. I remember it just being so so bad so intense. And at this point, it was probably like, it was around 2 p. m. or 2:30, and so it had been really intense for close to 24 hours I was just exhausted. In my birth plan, I had been like, I really don’t want to have an epidural. Really, really, really, really don’t want to have an epidural. Really, François. Don’t let me have an epidural. Please don’t let me. And so at that point though, with the puking and with everything, I was like, dude, I can’t, I, I’m exhausted. I need, like, give me an epidural. And the midwife knew I didn’t want one either. And so they kept saying, okay, okay. Just wait a little longer, just wait a little longer. And I think it was like an hour that they were telling me that. And I’m just like sitting on my hands and knees, like dying. I felt like I was truly like, could not, it could not get any worse. When I decided I wanted to get epidural, they were like, okay. They took me into the other room. They cleaned the part on my spine and they put this like, sticky thing over it to keep it sterile until the anesthesiologist was there. And François was kind of like, I think he was having a hard time because there was something strange about the baby’s heartbeat, I don’t remember. I was super in the birthing zone, so I don’t remember exactly. François had, he stepped outside for like 10 minutes and I was alone with this nurse and she was holding my, my hand and my puke bucket. And I, in my head, I Convinced myself that they put, like, a numbing, like it was a numbing sticker. Like, I was making this story up in my head that this sticker, where it is on my back, is exactly where it hurts. And it’s numbing, and let’s just focus on that one part in your back. And it’s, you can’t feel it anymore, because it’s going away. And I really relaxed when I was by myself with the nurse. And then, I was like, okay, this is going to be okay. And then they came in to check me. And I was like at a nine and they said the anesthesiologist is here. Do you want to still have an epidural? Or, I mean, you’re right at the end. So it’s any, it’s going to happen any minute. And I remember, I very vividly remember saying, Oh, okay. Okay. Fuck it.
Kiona: 39:06
hmm.
Taylor: 39:07
that like, fuck it. Fine. Okay. And the nurse looked at me and that they don’t, none of them speak English. And so she said, Oh, I know that word. Like she said that in French, like she was laughing, but she’s like, wow. Okay. I didn’t get the choice of what position I wanted to be in, so I just listened to what they said, and I laid on my back, exactly perfectly on my back, and I pushed for, I think, like, 15 minutes, and the doctor was like, I remember in her super French way, being like, No! It’s not like that. That’s not right. You have to push differently. Push, you’re doing it wrong. It’s like, okay, girl, I don’t know. And then she was like threatening. She’s like, I have to get the forceps. like, okay, and I know, like, and so I was like, push, I changed how I was pushing and he came out. It was not what I had planned, and it’s not what I had imagined, and I, afterwards, like, was very concerned, with breastfeeding immediately, like, I didn’t really… You know, I knew that you needed to get your baby on your boob, right, like, that’s when, in the first hour, now I know, like, it can be an hour, like, chill, enjoy the moment, but I was so concerned with, he has to eat right now, that I didn’t really enjoy the moment as much as I did with the others. That was something that I really made a point to stop and like, meet my baby with Ira and Gene, because I felt like I didn’t meetÈly until a while, like a few hours afterwards.
Kiona: 40:36
Yeah, I think that’s actually important to mention. there’s a couple things that I want to kind of go back to, but that part in particular of having that moment of like, okay, right to the boob. It sounds like you just didn’t have a moment to ground and so in your mind, you’re like kind of checking off the box of something that you do have control of, you know,
Taylor: 40:55
Mm hmm. Yeah.
Kiona: 40:57
to boob, baby to boob. Okay, like there’s so many things that didn’t go necessarily as planned, but I know that when my baby comes out, he’s going to the boob, you know.
Taylor: 41:06
Yep.
Kiona: 41:07
and so that I feel like that is also very much a normal response to people that are just in that shocking moment. And,
Taylor: 41:14
Mm hmm.
Kiona: 41:15
yeah. Grounding is a real thing that is totally surpassed a lot of the time with giving birth. especially if there’s things that continue to happen that are unexpected. and I would even say that it does happen more with first time parents and less with the following children.
Taylor: 41:34
Yes.
Kiona: 41:35
so yeah. And I do want to touch on a couple of things. You said that they moved your room. So, first off, we definitely do not have a quote unquote natural room in America. That actually sounds amazing. Like, it kind of, kind of just… It sounds like it provides you with the tools that you can utilize throughout labor if you want to birth unmedicated. like the, the cords, like the fabric cords from the ceiling, that is so cool. I wish that more hospitals had that. When you switched rooms, was, like, the bed different and everything? So was your natural room more, like, a birth center kind of style versus an in hospital kind of space? Or was it just different tools around?
Taylor: 42:18
Yeah. So it was just like a, the natural room was very big and there was like, there was a large, like queen size bed, kind of, like a leather thing that you could put some, A sheet on and everything. but there was also just a regular, like, hospital bed that adjusted. So I was, when I was on all fours, I started, I think I was only on the hospital bed for that, but I laid a little bit on the other bed, the, like, different loads, the natural room bed and stuff. But, when I switched rooms, though, it was just your classic, like, much smaller room, super bright fluorescent lights, one bed and their tools that they need. Like, there was no. There was nothing else.
Kiona: 43:02
Okay. But it wasn’t, like, O. R. status?
Taylor: 43:04
no, no, no, no. It was just, the reason they took me out of there is because that’s like the room that they let, they leave for, women who are trying to give birth without epidural. Right. Right.
Kiona: 43:14
Right. Okay. Interesting. Interesting. and then I also wanted to touch on how you said you were unconsensually swept throughout your pregnancy from 39 weeks. That is so, I want to say jarring, but it’s actually not because that happens a lot here. It happens a lot here. And I’m assuming that the reason why that happens is because Actually, you know, I don’t even know the reason. I think people just want to, like, get people to have babies in a timely fashion. and I don’t think providers do it as much as they used to, but I remember hearing many stories of them going in for a vaginal exam, like, even 38 weeks, 39 weeks, And just getting swept. And they’re like, why does it hurt so much? Like, vaginal exams should not hurt. But it’s also sometimes their first experience getting a cervical exam. And so they’re like, oh my god, this is painful, and they don’t know what to expect. And so they don’t realize that they are getting swept versus just checked.
Taylor: 44:12
In my consecutive pregnancies, with Ira or with Gene, I did not have a single cervical exam until I was in labor and they wanted to see, you know, I was sure I was in labor And I didn’t even really realize that I had had my membranes swept until this pregnancy. So all throughout Ira, I was just like, I just don’t want to do that. And I read so much about it. And like, you don’t, you don’t have to do that. From what my understanding is and from what I’ve read. Like, it’s not, unless there’s a reason, like something, they think something is wrong. Like, there’s really, you don’t have to consent to that. You don’t have to do it.
Kiona: 44:46
Yeah. And I agree. And the information that you gather from getting a vaginal exam during your pregnancy, pre labor, isn’t actually super informative, it just gives kind of like a starting point, which is assumed that everybody kind of has a similar starting point. Like, unless there’s somebody that has had history of, like, a cervical surgery of some kind, that would have some potential scarring or anything like that, like, it is good to know that if you have scarring, it may need to be released during labor. but with that said I can almost say With the experience that I’ve had as a birth doula, watching clients or hearing about clients getting cervical exams during pregnancy, or even as a student midwife with people, because as a student midwife, we didn’t necessarily offer cervical exams during pregnancy. It was only if they wanted us to exam them and see what was going on. And when we did provide those exams, it was whether or not the cervix was ripening or effacing. But even when we get that information, It’s not gonna tell us when labor starts.
Taylor: 45:55
Right. Exactly. Like, it makes me feel like a little, like, my cervix is a little lab rat or something. Like, you just want to see, like, let’s just see. Is it changed? Is it different? Like, but it tells you nothing. It could be that day, or it could be in three weeks. You know, like, if it is changing. I agree. Sweet little Taylor, pregnant with her first baby, didn’t know that. So,
Kiona: 46:16
yeah.
Taylor: 46:17
But this same doctor that did that, immediately afterÈly was born, this was also, I wanted to mention this, I forgot, this was like, she immediately walks up to me, she’s the one that was threatening with the forceps in her little super French way. I can, it’s okay, I can say things about the French because my children are half French so it’s fine. In her rude little way, she, like, she walks up to me. Says nothing. I’m holding my baby trying to get him on my boob and she just gives me a shot I have no at that at that point. I knew I knew nothing. I did not know what that was I literally had someone just give me a shot without even looking me in the eye not no, I did not expect it at all. In France, it’s like the doctors know the best, and, don’t question us, and you do what we say, and I’m gonna do to you what I need to do to you, because you’re the patient, and I’m the doctor, and I went to school for nine years, and you shut up and take it, basically. And I had this experience really bad with Gene, and I’ll tell you about that more later, but, anyway. So that was, like, that was shocking to me.
Kiona: 47:27
Yeah. That sounds shocking. Similar experiences to that actually happen here in America too, and I think it’s like this power struggle of, I’m the doctor, I went to school for this many years, I know best. And whenever anybody tries to, not necessarily push against them or anything, but if whenever anybody has an opinion about what to do with their own body, which they are an expert of, the doctors are like, whoa, why are you stepping on my toes? You know, like, I know everything about everyone. And you’re like, well, actually, did you know that I have a birthmark on my left butt cheek? Probably not, you know? And so it’s just, it’s definitely like, I believe that individuals are an expert within their own bodies. And. If there’s something that they need to learn more about because they’re going through pregnancy for the first time, they should use their doctor as a resource and not necessarily as the, the one to tell them how to do it all, all the time. If that makes sense. yeah.
Taylor: 48:32
That makes sense. Like, withÈly, I didn’t know that I could say, that I would need, even need to say something about, don’t do that, or no, I don’t want that, can I give you informed consent before you do X, Y, and Z? I wish that hadn’t happened, but I’m glad that it, it did happen cause I was certain with Ira and with Gene, like, I know what I want with my body, and that’s what’s gonna happen And I, I think that’s something, you don’t ever think that you would need to, it didn’t cross my mind, like, why would I need to tell a doctor, like, give my opinion to a doctor? Like, they’re gonna do what’s best for me, it’s, you know, but, there’s a line there.
Kiona: 49:08
Right. Right. Yeah. I agree. 100%. So, I guess one question that I have is, how much did the language barrier impact your care?
Taylor: 49:22
Looking back on that pregnancy where I spoke almost no French, then Ira’s pregnancy where I spoke some, and then this one where I’m fluent and understand everything, I feel like I was treated differently based on my ability to speak French, and it got me thinking about, like, all these people who. You’re treated so differently when you’re seen as stupid. I felt like I was being seen by these doctors as an idiot because I don’t know their language. And it’s so unfair and so hurtful and so like, they just brush you off in a way. Like, ah, well, she doesn’t understand, I don’t need to explain everything fully. Or I can just stick a needle in her arm because, ugh, whatever, she’s just an American. Like, she doesn’t speak French, she’s whatever. And I know that that kind of stuff happens in America to foreigners, and non foreigners too. You know, I was definitely treated differently when I did not speak any French.
Kiona: 50:15
Well, I’m sorry that you had to go through that experience, but at the same time, you were also saying you’re happy that you went through it partially because Now you know for sure what you don’t want done to your body while pregnant or birthing. and I think that’s important. Yeah.
Taylor: 50:29
Yeah, exactly.
Kiona: 50:31
Before we dive into your postpartum withÈly, I would love to dive into the conception and pregnancy of Ira.
Taylor: 50:36
Yeah, so, Ira was also unplanned. And this time, I was, using the app, an app, and I was using it religiously. Super on the dot. Except… My cycles were like 35 to 36 or 34 days or something at that time. And consistently for like six months, they were like 34 days, but the app was set to 28 days cause that’s the standard. And so I accidentally got pregnant. But I remember very specifically my husband in his cute little French way saying, it’s a great news So it was like it was not it was not at all like withÈly It was immediately like so much joy and like oh This is so exciting because my siblings are all half siblings and the closest one is six years younger than me and the other one is ten years older So I was like, this is so awesome.Èly was only ten months old. So they’re 18 months apart And that’s why I was like, this is so great. I’m so jealous of them to have that. Like, and now seeing how they are, like, yeah, it, it was definitely not planned, but perfect. Like it was good. So, it was unplanned and it was right at the beginning of when COVID arrived in Mauritania. So it was in May of 2020.
Kiona: 51:58
I love that they are so close in age. I think that’s awesome. I remember always wanting my kids to be super close in age, but then my body was like, no girl, all your kids are about to be four years apart. And I was like, Cool, I guess. but, yeah, I think that’s really awesome for you and for you to also have that happy moment of being like, oh my God, my babies are full siblings and they’re close in age and they get to experience growing up together. I think that that’s really, really, really cool. With you finding out that you were pregnant in COVID times, like, how did that impact your care throughout your pregnancy?
Taylor: 52:36
So we, it was like the week before I found out I was pregnant, I think there was the first case of COVID in Mauritania. And again, I was lucky enough to be able to leave so I’m a teacher so we left actually early before the school year was done because I was like, I am pregnant and we have a 10 month old and I’m not trying to get stuck here or have, we don’t know what this does to kids yet. I really was like, we are leaving right now, we left early, I finished the school year online, So we went to France, and stayed with my husband’s family again, and on, this was on May 25th, we found out we were pregnant, and then on June 3rd, I got this call from my sister in the States, and she told me that Our mother had had a stroke and was being airlifted to Harborview, which is the big hospital in Seattle. And that was shocking, my mom was only 54, it was absolutely shocking. I, that’s the only time in my life that something has genuinely, like, made me go to my knees. Like, I, she said that, and I thought she was going to say that my mom was dead, and she wasn’t, she didn’t die. But it was, I mean, that was. Yeah, and so, about a month after that,Èly and I flew to the States, anyway, so, like, how did COVID impact my care? I know that’s a question, but it’s like, I had some care in the States, and I had no, at the beginning, no care in France, it was only in the States. I saw, I think, two doctors in the States, and it didn’t really, there was no, nothing, there was nothing different than I think it would have been without COVID, really. Like, we wore masks, but other than that, there was nothing with my care.
Kiona: 54:24
And François wasn’t in America with you. Was he just you and Èly?
Taylor: 54:29
No, it was justÈly and I, and when we flew there, it was crazy. There was no one on the plane. I mean, it was like, we were the only people on the plane, which was insane. yeah, going because of COVID. But, but while I was there, I guess, while I was there, They, the CDC put pregnant people on the same list as like people who were, who had, as the elderly and people who had diabetes or like all these high risk people, they put pregnant people on the list while I was in the States. And so when we came home, I was like. We are not going anywhere, we are isolating, like, I cannot deal with that, we were hearing all these stories about women being intubated, and not being part of their births, and having their babies taken from them, and they couldn’t hold their babies because they had COVID, and I was like, I, this is absolutely not going to happen to us. we are isolating, and that was super stressful and straining on our relationship. So I think, the reason I’m saying all of this stuff is because this was, with Ira, it was by far, COVID, the COVID situation, my mother’s stroke, everything, that was the most emotionally and, mentally difficult pregnancy by far.
Kiona: 55:49
Yeah, it definitely sounds like there’s a lot there. Like, even if COVID wasn’t around and you’re in a completely different country hearing that your mom had a stroke, like, that itself is a lot, you know? And then with that on top of COVID, and then all of the COVID protocols that are coming out, and I’m sure there’s like a ton of visitation things in the hospitals at this point, when it came to who could go in and see your mom if she was still in the hospital. But the reason why I was asking whether or not François was there, is because a lot of people during COVID times were upset about the fact that their partners couldn’t come with them to the hospitals. for their care and their appointments and things. So you were saying that you didn’t notice a big difference and I was wondering whether or not he was there, and if he was, if he was going or not. So, yeah, that is interesting. So when you got back to France and decided you’re not going anywhere, doing anything, were your visits and stuff at the hospitals in France pretty, like, straightforward?
Taylor: 56:54
yeah, I mean, I went by myself and we went to a different hospital than we went to withÈly, so this was in a bigger city and there was someone there that spoke English that I could see, so that was huge because I needed someone that spoke English. but yeah, they were pretty straightforward. The only restriction was like on who could come visit after the birth, like there were no visits except the father. so I couldn’t seeÈly. he couldn’t even come, after I had given birth, but other than that, no. François was with me for the labor and everything.
Kiona: 57:23
Okay. Good. That’s awesome. I’m happy to hear that he was still there with you during that time. And I also think it’s great that you were able to find an English speaking provider because with François not being able to go with you to the appointments, for you to be able to actually communicate with someone is extremely important. Let’s go ahead and dive into your labor with Ira. How did that start out and was it different than with your first?
Taylor: 57:51
Ira was very late. he was born at 41 weeks and 5 days. And, so, in France, they start monitoring you every day after 41 weeks.
Kiona: 58:05
hmm. Mm
Taylor: 58:06
So I was doing monitoring every day. We were luckily really close to the hospital, but it was really exhausting. And they kept pushing induction. And at one point I had to sign a paper so that I could leave the hospital. It was like at 41 weeks and three days or something, I had to sign a paper that, and it was this huge thing. And I was like, I was the first person ever in the history of. Medicine in France to say no to a doctor again. So I tried acupuncture actually at the hospital once. By someone that did the acupuncturist there, and then that didn’t really do anything for me and then two days later it was on, yeah, it was on 41 weeks, 5 days. I decided let’s try to get to go to see an acupuncturist, maybe outside the hospital, like, not just a nurse or a midwife doing it. Let’s go see if we know, like, I can find someone who actually does it. You know, like, studied, I don’t know. I don’t know what I was looking for exactly, but I found him, and it was this man who had studied in China, and he had traveled everywhere, and he, it was very, like, this weird, mysterious, Office and you had to go through all these doors. It was just like this weird place and he put a needle like, and I’m, I told you I’m a high school science teacher. I’m not like, I don’t know to me. I was like, this is ridiculous. This isn’t gonna work, but we’re gonna try it because I don’t want to be induced medically. And so. Anyway, he did a two or three needles, waited for two minutes, and then took them off. I was like, okay, you’ll have, you’ll go into labor in the next 12 hours. He’s like, okay. and I actually went into labor like four hours later. and it was huge, immediate, like, big contraction. And I was, I was like, okay, I need to take a shower really quick before we go. I was like calling out like start and stop, and François was timing them, and he’s like, Are you sure? What do you mean? Am I sure? Like, yes, I’m, yes, I’m sure. It’s like, Taylor, they’re like four minutes apart, three or four minutes. Like, some of them were so close together and so intense. so we got to the hospital, and there was a male midwife that I saw, and I, he was the best, and I wish that… More of them were like him because it was incredible. He was super supportive. Let me sit in the position I wanted let me move around and he made me feel so comfortable and I feel like The difference between this andÈly was that, like, I embraced this is going to be wild, and I am embracing that, and I am not in control, and I, but I have the responsibility, we are not going to have any interventions, and if they, like, you can take care of it. I, I coached François, like, can you please advocate for me? Because he didn’t know either the first time. Um, advocate for me to ensure that like, I’m not messed with. And, but this guy, this guy was, this male midwife was so sweet and wonderful. And there was, he didn’t even give us a reason to need to advocate for ourselves. He’s like, when I started my water, like gushed broke huge, this crazy, crazy different fromÈly. After that, When I started getting ready to push, I was like kind of on my side and I had one leg up and the nurse that was with the midwife, was like she should get on her back. And the male midwife in this like super, it’s like one of the only things I remember the super calm ways like. Let her be how she wants to be. I was like, like, thank you so much. And so I was like, I didn’t say that then, but anyway, I was on my side and I pushed, truly, I think I pushed three times and Ira was out. And this time I was like, got him on my chest. I looked at him and I like, the first thing I said is like, thank you for finally coming. Like, I’m so glad you’re here. And I had that moment and yeah. It was very different fromÈly and I didn’t immediately want his cord cut. so they let us sit there for like 20 minutes and my placenta actually didn’t come out. it was like 30 minutes, I think it was 35 minutes, but it finally came out. But the, he started freaking out a little bit, the male midwife. But it came out by itself and everything was perfect. It was just like the most serene, golden hour after giving birth. It was perfect.
Kiona: 1:02:13
That sounds so beautiful, and it sounds very, very different than your first experience. and that makes me happy for you, and the fact that your, male midwife was saying, ah, let her be how she wants to be. He was just seeing that you were doing great the way you were doing and why mess with that, you know? So I love that.
Taylor: 1:02:31
It was very much a healing moment from Èly’s labor and delivery, because I felt kind of like almost disappointed in myself for not standing up for myself, and this time, like, it was not at all like that, and I didn’t necessarily need to or anything, like it felt like I was redeemed in some way. I don’t really know exactly how, but, yeah,
Kiona: 1:02:52
I love that. I really do. And it makes me happy to hear that because it sounds like you worked harder to make sure that your voice was heard. You prepped your partner, you know, to make sure that he could advocate for you when you were not in the state to be able to do so. And that’s great. And then you got to experience the big old gush of water.
Taylor: 1:03:11
I swear to God, there was a sound. Like I really, I feel like I heard it. I don’t know if I’ve never talked to anybody else about that, like asked anyone if that’s a possibility that I could have heard my water break, but I really feel like I did.
Kiona: 1:03:23
Yeah, no, it’s absolutely a thing. Like, a lot of people say that they hear a pop or a snap, and then you got that, you know, that’s kind of what you were hoping for the first time around at least from the sounds of it was just your, your water to break naturally. And then this time you got it and
Taylor: 1:03:39
Yeah,
Kiona: 1:03:39
that was interesting.
Taylor: 1:03:41
and I feel like I dealt, like the labor from start to finish was four hours, so it was way faster, so I wasn’t as tired obviously, but I also managed like, I know that this is going to get to that point where I cannot handle it anymore, and I’m going to be able to handle it because I’ve already handled it. So that part, like I said earlier, like, I felt like my body image issues were healed with later pregnancy, like, later. After Ira’s birth, I was like, I managed this whole thing, like, I did that, and, My body is frickin awesome, and I didn’t have body image issues after this, like, massive feat that I felt like I had with Ira.Kiona: 1:04:17
That’s amazing. I love that. I, I love that so much. I just do. I don’t know how else to say that. Like, I, I love it. I think it’s amazing. I think it’s great. I, I love that you had that experience and you had that kind of redemption kind of birth and you just felt so good about yourself. And I love that. And I wish that everybody got to feel that way after giving birth. So I love it. so let’s go ahead and if you’re okay with it. Let’s go ahead and move forward to your conception and birth with Gene. was Gene planned? And let’s dive into his birth as well.
Taylor: 1:04:53
Gene, finally we get to our first planned child. Yes, so Gene was planned, and we… decided, let’s give it a try on purpose this time, and we tried for one month, and then I was pregnant with Gene, and I remember taking the pregnancy test, and it was really, I mean, you had to like, use a magnifying glass to see this line, but you could see it.
Kiona: 1:05:17
That’s awesome. I love that. And it probably felt good to make that decision and then actually see the results. You know?
Taylor: 1:05:24
Yes. Right.
Kiona: 1:05:26
And so, how was his pregnancy? Did you have any struggles with anything during his pregnancy?
Taylor: 1:05:32
Yeah, I think, my biggest struggle with Gene, and I’m just, I’m still kind of going, like, sorting through all of this, like, what I’ve learned from this pregnancy and delivery and birth, but when he, when I had the nuchal translucency scan, you know, I like, I think it was like around 13 weeks or whenever it is, like, I think I told you, I did all of, almost all of my appointments with him were in Mauritania, and with the other two, that was not the case. All the appointments were in America or in France. So, here in Mauritania, I got the Nucal Translucency Scan, and the woman, the technology here is very, very different from the technology we have in France, and in the West. It’s not good… And so she took the measurements and was like, Oh, you need to do further testing. They actually also don’t do the normal genetic testing that they do. Like at the beginning of pregnancies, like for trisomy or the trisomy 21 or 18 or any of those things. so. Didn’t have that done, and then she just did the nuchal translucency scan and said, this is too big, and that can be a sign of genetic, issues. And so you need to do the blood test, which they would do normally in France. And to do that in Mauritania was like$1,200 but more importantly than that, François and I really, I mean, it was like 48 hours only that we dealt with this, but I just got in the car immediately after they said that, after she said that there’s a potential that he has Down syndrome or something, and we just sobbed, I sobbed, and François cried, and it was like, looking back, it’s like, okay, I, I could get a second opinion, and I did get a second opinion, and obviously, it was a mistake, but, to have to think about that was really rough for me, And I feel like that kind of anxiety, thinking that something was wrong with him at the beginning, stuck with me throughout the pregnancy, and that really impacted actually my labor and delivery eventually also. so anxiety was my biggest, issue with this pregnancy.
Kiona: 1:07:48
Yeah, and I think that brings up a good point because, even if it was shown that, that was a mistake, like her, her, she was trying to help you and say, Hey, you might want to get this checked out. This is what I see versus you getting a second opinion and having it be like, okay, like cleared out. That anxiety still sticks with you, for sure, because you’re like, how much do we really know? Like, he’s on the inside, like, what can we actually tell? Like, should we still be mentally preparing to have a child with a potential disability? Like, what would that look like in our life? How would this change how we parent this baby, you know, and how will it change the dynamic of our already existing family?
Taylor: 1:08:34
I feel like it would change all of those things. And given our lifestyle, we’re living in, in Mauritania. Like there’s not treatment for anything. There’s not medicine here. Like there’s not real medical care like we could get in the West. So that would mean like our entire lives would change. Just like we were thinking when we found out we were pregnant withÈly, you know, so it was something very similar to that. Luckily, I immediately went and got a second opinion. Because, I mean, we didn’t have the money to send a blood test for$1,200. so we went and got a second opinion. My anxiety. After that it wasn’t only about him having something genetically wrong with him, for a large majority when he started moving I was certain that he was having seizures like not just at the beginning when it’s flutters And you know that it’s gonna be flutters, but like towards the end It was like he was it really felt like he was vibrating like multiple times and now it’s crazy because I See, he does do this stretch thing where he shivers. So I wasn’t crazy, but it was such a terrible feeling inside that I did not have withÈly or Ira that I was like, Oh my God, he’s, he’s has a seizure, like something’s wrong, he’s having seizures. And then thoughts of him dying or me dying in labor or, yeah, it was just, it was hard, like the pregnancy with Jean was really like, I don’t want to say it was like damaged. It wasn’t damaged. It was still a good pregnancy, but it was tarnished in a way by this anxiety of like the, what ifs of, what if something’s wrong, what if something goes, what if, what if, what if, what if.
Kiona: 1:10:01
Yeah. And I feel like once that initial anxiety kind of gives way, it makes it that much harder to let go of the other potential things that could be popping up in your mind. Do you know what I mean? Like, I feel like I have a similar understanding to the whole, like, baby shivering and it feeling like a seizure because that is what my son did. And I was also… worried because one time I had to go in for, like, an echocardiograph for him to, like, get his heart checked out because they weren’t sure if his heart was beating right. And I was like, oh my god, is my baby okay? Like, what am I, what can I do to, like, make sure that he’s fine? And then, you know, having those concerns of, like, what birth would look like, especially because… babies, deal with birth differently because they’re getting this ginormous bear hug to get ejected, you know. So yeah, that’s definitely interesting. And so let’s dive a little bit more into like what his actual labor was like for you then.
Taylor: 1:11:04
So, he was also late, and in France, so I got to 41 weeks, and in France they start doing, like I said, monitoring after 41 weeks every day. So, we were going in for, no, every other day, whatever, anyway, we were going in and on day, Oh yeah, I tried, I tried literally everything to get to induce labor, I tried everything. I tried acupuncture and this mugwort stuff like a sticker thing that you burn, and it’s like, I don’t know, I had these things on my toes, I was eating Thai food, I was drinking this special tea. Like, I tried. Everything to get this to hap like him to, to induce labor because I did not want to be induced again. And go through the process with Ira of them saying like, Oh, you’re gonna kill your baby and all the you know, like, I did not. I was had so much anxiety about that. and it ended up on 41 and 5, the same time the day that Ira was born in his pregnancy, we went to the doctor for regular monitoring. And… They monitored, everything was fine. The midwife I saw, she did an ultrasound to check, that the amniotic fluid is fine. And, I had not had a cervical exam up to this point at all throughout the pregnancy, and I said that I would have one, and if she could sweep my membranes when she does it, because I’m getting to the point where nothing’s working, and they’re going to do something, want to do something more invasive. We said, yeah, if you choose to do that, that’s totally fine. So I was back and forth. I said, okay, I have to, I had to see an OB first or a doctor first. And so I’ll decide after I see him, like, let’s see what he says and blah, blah, blah. Then we went upstairs to see, it was five and a half hours. that we were at this hospital waiting. And then this resident comes in, and I, he was 25, around 25 actually, looked him up later, he was 25. And he comes in, I’ll tell you why I looked him up, that sounds creepy, let me tell you why. He comes in, and he says, he says, at 41 weeks and 5 days, we have to induce in France. So that was starting the conversation for like just on a wrong foot It’s the bad a bad foot. And so my husband said, well, no, we don’t have to induce actually and François was like, oh my god, like wow compared to how we were withÈly, this resident was saying, like arguing with us, I said, well I’d like to have my membrane swept, is that a possibility? And he said, he literally said to us, c’est pasàla carte, which means it’s not by the menu, aka, you don’t get to choose how you have your baby, no, we are going to decide. And it’s like, okay, then tell me, how you would like, what is your suggestion, what would you suggest? Well, you stay at the hospital and we’ll give you oxytocin so he’s basically, he’s just like, being such a bully, and I said, well, no, we, I, I, I don’t want to do that. I, I want my membranes left. He said, we don’t do that. Lied blatantly lies to my face. We don’t do that. And I was like, what are you talking about? I, I, it’s the first time I think I’ve ever used an expletive with a medical professional like, you’re lying to me. That’s not true. I’ve been told by multiple, like, I know that’s an option. I know that that’s a possibility and it’s the least invasive, least medical way that we can, whatever. So, well, okay, I’ll go ask my colleague. okay, so he leaves for like, less than two minutes, comes back, and said, Okay, we’ll do that, but you have to stay in the hospital. And François was so awesome, he’s like, Okay, bye! And he stood up, and I stood up, and I was like, Alright, well then, screw this, fine. You’re not gonna sweep my membranes? Whatever. That’s horrible, I’m asking you to help me have a labor that I want to have and basically gave him a middle finger and before he let us leave, he said, okay, well, you have to sign a paper that says blah, blah, blah, blah. François is like, give me the pen. And so they don’t actually have a paper that’s like a consent, like I’m going against medical advice. It was actually, François had to write what the doctor is telling him. So the doctor says, You need to write that you’re refusing medical, you’re going against medical advice. Okay, François wrote it. I, and he’s saying it out loud, He put quotes, like, around doctor’s advice, Because he was calling him, like, not a doctor. It was so, like, oh my god. I don’t think I’ve ever loved François that much. He was like, And you need to write that you risk, giving birth at home. And so François like, and my wife may give birth at home. And you need to write that, there’s a risk of, that your baby will die. And François like, And we take full responsibility that we may potentially, possibly, be the murderers of our third child, Which we are, blah blah blah, and just kept going, writing all of this stuff, and, yeah. Anyway, so we left, and then I got in the car and broke down sobbing, because that was so intense. And this is what I had prepared us for during Ira’s pregnancy that we never had to deal with. But here with Gene, we killed it. it sucked at the time, because I do not like confrontation and I do not like having to deal with something like that. And I really wanted my membranes swept, but looking back, we destroyed it. We did so, that was exactly what I wanted for us to do. Like, be in charge of this together. And also, I… Man, that was, it was perfect. and I went into spontaneous labor eight hours later. So
Kiona: 1:16:27
Oh, man, I was gonna say I wouldn’t be surprised if you said, then we went home and François gave me my membrane sweep and we just went on our way.
Taylor: 1:16:35
We literally talked about that. He said, do you think I can YouTube how to give you a memory? Obviously it was a joke.
Kiona: 1:16:43
oh my gosh. I love your husband. That’s so great. I’m so happy that he was like such like just badass advocate for you. And for him too, you know, like it’s, it’s like your guy is his child and he’s just, uh, that’s great.
Taylor: 1:16:57
Yeah. It was so awesome. But, so we go home and him and I went for this huge walk and we went hiking and I did like curb walking, you know, where you step up and down. And I bounced on a yoga ball and then I went into spontaneous labor. and it was again, pretty quick. I think from start to finish this time it was only three and a half, three or three and a half hours. When we got back to the hospital, same hospital where I had this confrontation the same day earlier with this guy, he was still there, and he was, he was an OB, so, a resident OB, so he wasn’t gonna be, like, in, involved with my labor at all, unless there was something that went wrong, but I got there, and I found out that he was there, and I freaked out. I had a full panic attack because, I can’t be taken care of by a doctor who’s not gonna listen to me, you know what I mean? Like, I really, I told the midwife, like, If, if something goes wrong, like you, there has to be another OB that comes in. Like he can’t, I can’t have that man in my room. Like I, he cannot, because my labor will stall or something will go wrong. I can’t have him with me in the room. Like, oh my gosh. Okay. Yeah. But, so I really, I think that kind of sets the stage for Gene’s to labor because I was way more vocal. I was growling. I was like, I wasn’t yelling, but I was like, there was like some, there was some guttural stuff happening. and it was so much more intense. I feel like the number of contractions was fewer, but the intensity was like, it went, when I got there, I think it was a five centimeters and like an hour and a half later, I was. It’s still like only at a six, but then like in the span of, I think in the span of like 30 minutes, I went from six, five or six to 10. I mean, it happened really, really fast, really intense. And I had anxiety the whole time, and that’s why it’s, I think it’s so important. That the people that you have around you like if I could have had a home birth I would have absolutely chosen that and you can choose who’s going to be there, you know, like that’s so important I didn’t get that choice.
Kiona: 1:19:04
So just a couple things that I want to touch on there is good job on 100 percent saying from the beginning I do not want that man in my space. I don’t want him in my space, and there has to be another O. B. We’re not at the end yet, so fingers crossed he didn’t need to come into your space. but, second, I love how you talk about the sounds that you made, and how different they were from the sounds that you remember making your other two births, because I feel like… Especially when there’s some kind of level of anxiety. Birth becomes so much more primal. Like, there’s things that you just can’t control and not, don’t even necessarily want to control sometimes, but like, I feel like you were just working and you’re like, this baby needs to come out and everything needs to be fine.
Taylor: 1:19:54
Absolutely. No, that was, you’re exactly right, that was my mindset, get this done, and we can get out of here. It was a weird, it was weird, actually, I wroteÈly and Ira’s birth stories down in their journals that I have for them, but I haven’t written Gene’s yet. And. This is like, kind of my first time processing it, and I actually didn’t think of it like that, that is exactly how I felt. I didn’t feel in danger necessarily, but I think that kind of was there, like, that anxiety, like, this is, let’s just make sure that he’s okay, let’s get him out, and be done with this, because this is bullshit if I’m over it,
Kiona: 1:20:27
right. Yeah. Oh man so you were there and then you had that really intense 30 minute transition period. What was pushing, like, for you this time?
Taylor: 1:20:41
So I remember being like, I’m going to throw up to François and I was on all fours. They were letting me move around except they kept wanting to do like monitoring. And I, at one point I was like, no. Stop touching me. I don’t need you to do a cervical check. It’s gonna, it’s gonna happen soon. I remember snapping like, it’s gonna happen soon. Stop. So I didn’t want a cervical check at that point. Like they were monitoring him. His heart was fine. And I remember telling François I was going to throw up. I actually ended up not throwing up, but I rolled on my side. I laid on my side for some reason, for a second, and my water was just a, like I peed my pants, you know, just a small thing, and I was like, okay, my water broke, and then very quickly, I felt the stinging, you know, the stinging that you feel, that, where he’s moving down, and it’s almost time, to push, and so, I was laying on my side, I think also, Part of my anxiety was like, Ira’s birth was such this, this amazing, magical, perfect moment that if it’s not like that, I’ll be disappointed again like I was withÈly, so I was like, what can I do to make it exactly like with Ira? So I was like, not really listening, you know, like I tried to lay on my side like I was with Ira because that’s how I was with Ira and I was perfect, so let’s try it. but that was not comfortable and I pushed like twice like that and the midwife said, do you wanna roll over on onto all fours like you were before? Because that actually, yeah, I did push twice like that and it was not. Productive and it I was it was not good. It did not feel good It was not I mean not that it feels good at that point But it was it felt like nothing was happening. And so I rolled over like she said on all fours and then contractions were super intense at that point still, and I, withÈly and Ira, like, when I was pushing, I remember the contractions kind of, you know, like, you don’t, you’re so into, like, pushing that they’re not as painful, like, for me, they weren’t as painful, but with Gene, they were like, damn, I still, this is still so painful for me, more than the pushing, so I pushed a couple times, and it wasn’t productive, and I could feel that it wasn’t productive. I could feel that he was bigger than either of the other two also. and so, I think I started like, Okay Taylor, really like, you are gonna stop. Like I stopped making noise, and I fully like, all that noise that I was making, I feel like I was imagining it like, Going down through my body to help me push this baby out instead of, like, letting it escape my mouth. You know what I mean?
Kiona: 1:23:03
Yes. Yes.
Taylor: 1:23:06
So I pushed once I really like focused and like said told my the scary parts of my brain that were freaking out Still to like chill. I think I pushed two times and then two or three times and he was he was out
Kiona: 1:23:20
And were you still on all fours at this point?
Taylor: 1:23:22
yeah, yeah, I gave birth on all fours for him.
Kiona: 1:23:25
Nice.
Taylor: 1:23:25
yeah, oh, the best, I was just thinking that as soon as I, as soon as he came out, I didn’t hear anything, and there was this, like, very, very clear, moment of, clarity, where I, came back into my body, and oh my god, my baby, and I felt like such an animal in that moment. I turned around very quickly to find him because I couldn’t see him, I didn’t catch him or anything. Like, I turned around very quickly and I knew that, I mean, I lifted my leg, but they were like, oh, careful! Like, they were thinking I was going to kick my baby off the table or something. But, it was just a very weird moment of animalistic oh my god, it’s done, okay, grab him. and, he wasn’t, he was kind of struggling, like, his breathing sounded funny, and so I, like, was stimulating him, and it was, Yeah. Then I, I think I said to him also, like, thank you for finally getting out of me, geez.
Kiona: 1:24:16
Yeah. Oh, and you know, I find it interesting, now that you say that out loud again, that for both of your quick labors was when you said, thank you for finally coming out.
Taylor: 1:24:31
Thats a good point. I think it was just because I meant like, thank you for getting out of me after 42 weeks. Yeah. You know, like, you’re, you’re so late. But yeah, that’s funny. I never thought of it like that.
Kiona: 1:24:42
Yeah, but, I love that, and I, I really, really love, I don’t know, maybe it’s because I can relate. My third, I was so primal as well, and so I love that you’re talking about kind of like those primal, like, animalistic instincts of just, like, doing what you feel is right in the moment, which is like, give me my baby. I work so hard for you. You’re here. Thank you for coming. We work so hard together, actually. Thanks for being a great team member and coming out. Thank God.
Taylor: 1:25:12
Yeah, yeah, that’s totally how I felt. And that was also, like, I had just imagined the whole time, the whole pregnancy, like, he’s gonna come out, something’s gonna be wrong, like I told you, like, just anxiety about him, something being wrong with him, and finally, like, I looked at him, and he was. Just perfect and so fat and like nothing Obviously wrong and I remember just being like, oh finally and that was like after the stress of with the doctor finding and everything like I Really felt like totally like finally relaxed after this long pregnancy of anxiety and everything like it was Having him finally there was really like the most relieving. I don’t know finally happen.
Kiona: 1:25:55
Yeah, that’s amazing. I love it. It’s so awesome. so we, you did say that Gene was bigger or he felt bigger, so we never actually touched on the weight of any of your babies. How, how big were they?
Taylor: 1:26:09
So,Èly was born at 39 weeks and a few days and he was 7 and a half pounds. and Ira was born almost 42 weeks and he was 8 pounds and 11 ounces. And Gene was born at 42 weeks, and he was 9 pounds and 4 ounces. So he definitely was bigger. I’m not saying huge, like, a lot, a lot bigger, but 5 ounces bigger. Felt bigger.
Kiona: 1:26:35
big enough to definitely feel the difference.
Taylor: 1:26:37
Yes.
Kiona: 1:26:38
Oh, that’s awesome. Yeah. I am used to hearing all of those numbers. and it’s interesting to hear the progression of like how much they weighed and like, It associated to like how far along in your gestation of pregnancy you gave birth to them, so yeah. I think that’s
Taylor: 1:26:54
I just, I like to say that because I, I mean…Èly was so, like, like I said, she swept my membranes, and so I wonder if he would’ve also been super late, you know? Like, that’s why I like to see the date with it, cause I, I feel like that did make, that would’ve made a difference in his, how long he stayed in my womb.
Kiona: 1:27:14
Oh yeah, absolutely. I think so as well. So, let’s actually touch on your postpartums a little bit. it sounds like, from what you’ve told me before that you decided to breastfeed all of your babes?
Taylor: 1:27:27
Yeah, I did. WithÈly, I was so focused on thinking about the labor and delivery that I didn’t even consider that people had problems with breastfeeding, because I knew nothing at the time about any of that. So, I didn’t consider that that would be the hardest part, actually, and I struggled. super hard withÈly because I wanted to breastfeed him so desperately that, I mean, for six months I tried to get him diagnosed with a lip tie which I had and whichÈly definitely does have, still today. I, so remember I was saying like in Europe you think, oh, everyone must breastfeed in France, right? Like, no, not at all. No one. It is so, there are no resources. Lactation consulting is like not a thing. It’s rare. So I had no help. The doctors that I saw were like, oh, well, just, just give him powder then. What’s your problem? Like, it’s, sometimes it hurts, you know, sometimes it just hurts. Like, okay, but my nipples are literally like falling off of me. Like, I bled. I had blisters. I had mastitis. I had thrush at one point. He just, he couldn’t open his mouth big enough and the feedings would last at the beginning like 45 minutes and then he would eat every 90 minutes so it was like constantly, constantly on my boob and it was absolute hell and I didn’t have anyone. I was alone. I didn’t have friends that had babies and I didn’t have friends really at all because we were in France and we didn’t really live there. We lived in Mauritania so we were just staying in France afterÈly was born. And, François didn’t know what to do so I slowly, like, this kid needs to eat and I need to sleep and I slowly started giving him more and more formula and around six months I had such Severe postpartum depression. Like, not so severe. I shouldn’t say that because some people it’s way, way worse. But I definitely had postpartum depression, and I know that it was because I couldn’t get help to breastfeed him when I so desperately wanted to. so I just said like, you know what, this is, I’m so sorry,Èly. And I remember crying the last time I breastfed him because it hurt really bad and because I was like, this is it. I, I’m giving up and I felt like such a failure. But, looking back, I really, I tried as hard as I could and I wish that I had known what I could do, so taking that experience, withÈly, when I had Ira, I, I was like, I’m gonna breastfeed this kid till he self weens, and I don’t care if I have to spend however much money to get to the United States to get him a lip, like if he has a lip tie, I don’t care, we’re, I’m doing it this time, cause now, and I like prepared myself looking for all these resources and blah blah blah, I didn’t have that, I had postpartum depression with Ailee, so I didn’t even have like The ability to think, like, let me look something up, or let me, you know, like, I’m just so out of it. With Ira, it was the exact same thing asÈly, and I said, he has a lip tie. And we went to three different specialists in the city we were living in, and all of them said, we don’t do that surgery on, Well, first of all, he doesn’t have a lip tie. I’m like, okay, but he does. And We need to get it fixed. Well, we don’t do that surgery on babies, because we have to do general anesthesia. Instead of just local, that’s dangerous, and I didn’t want that either. So I reached out to this wonderful lady that I knew from Portland when I lived there, and she saved my breastfeeding journey with Ira, like, there are, I think, I want to say, three places in France where they will do a laser surgery to cut, do a lip tie, or a, a lip tie. And so, she found me one, we went to Paris, we spent It didn’t get, it wasn’t covered by our insurance, which is so crazy. but luckily it’s still France, so it was only like 300 to have this clipped, or cut with a laser. immediately it was better. And this was like at four weeks, that we had that done for Ira. And I breastfed him until he self weaned at around 15 months. he just decided he was done.
Kiona: 1:31:43
I really love that you were able to still reach out to someone here in the states, because they found someone for you.. how cool is that. you didnt have to come all the way to America to get this procedure done, which could have been just so much more challenging because of, like, health insurance and coming over and then it’d probably be way more money here in the States to actually get it done. I’m happy that you were able to reach out to someone for that and, you were kind of gently touching on postpartum depression. I, I kind of want to hear a little bit more about that. Did you find that your postpartum depression started going away a little bit more after you started giving him formula or did you need any additional support with like going into therapy? Or did you kind of just… Let François know what was going on and kind of work together with it. How was that for you?
Taylor: 1:32:33
Yeah, I didn’t, we were in France, so I didn’t do therapy, because I couldn’t speak the language, and it was really just François and I, like, me talking with him, and it didn’t go away immediately, it was still, it’s still hung around, but I do remember… Like feeling this massive sense of relief. and sadness when I decided that I was done trying I definitely felt this like thing lifting off my chest, I’ve let, let it go. I let myself free of you don’t have to do this to your body anymore. Like. It’s okay, you’ve stopped. And so I think I really, that’s how I feel like, why I feel like it was directly associated with that. like within a month after I decided to stop, I felt like me again, like for the first time since probably becoming pregnant
Kiona: 1:33:21
Yeah, oh I think that’s great And I I think that it was also super brave and a strong decisions for you to make to say, okay I’m done because you know your limit and it’s you can only give give give so much without breaking down and so I just want to say that like I see you, I feel you, like, that is a really hard decision to make and, post, obviously like not being anywhere near you or anything as you were going through that and physically across the world from you now, like, I thank you for sharing that and, I’m really proud of you for making that decision for yourself and your family because it was a hard decision to make. So, yeah.
Taylor: 1:34:02
totally. And I, that’s something I drives me crazy. I even had guilt about it. We’re told there’s you know I know that’s like a cliche thing to say now Like I don’t know what actually what the thing is they say like about feeding your baby like bed is best or whatever it is Like I don’t remember what they say, but it really is like genuinely true. Like it doesn’t matterÈly is Literally the sm I mean, I’m not gonna say my kid’s the smartest cuz we all say that but he is so smart He is so sweet and gentle and kind and good and big and strong, you know like And Ira is too, like, they were fed completely differently and they are exactly the same developmentally. Everything is good about both of them, so it really didn’t matter.
Kiona: 1:34:47
Yeah. No, I hear you. Yeah, the, the term is fed is best and I agree with that term and a lot of people really, really do want to breast or chest or body feed. You know, they really do want to do those things and when they’re not able to do those things, it’s really hard. I was just listening to another podcast. Called Driver’s Seat Moms Podcast, and she was interviewing her mom in the first episode, and her mom is a lactation consultant, an IBCLC, and she had said even though breastfeeding is supposed to be Natural, it’s not as natural as breathing, it’s as natural as walking, meaning like it’s not something that people just do. It’s something that has to be learned. And I loved that because it just shows like, yes, it is like the quote unquote natural thing to do, but it doesn’t mean it’s easy.
Taylor: 1:35:41
Yes, that’s such a good analogy, that’s so true, yeah. It’s totally, it’s a skill that you both learn, right.
Kiona: 1:35:48
Yeah. Did you experience any, like, postpartum depression with, Ira or Jean? Or are you going through anything with Gene right now?
Taylor: 1:35:57
no. With Ira, no. And with Gene, no. With Ira, I feel like I was so determined to, get the problem fixed and breastfeed him that I didn’t have any of that. One thing I wanted to say, actually, with Ira, about, Jessica, she was across the world and helping me find this, place that would do the surgery, I read what I had written about her, before doing this and I remembered just now and it makes me think of your podcast. It’s like this process of like, women helping women and girls learning and being around women who are pregnant and breast breastfeeding, you know, and like seeing these things like we don’t have that anymore. Like The camaraderie or the, the learning that we used to have when we were like 50 people living in a little village all together, you know, like, so that was something I loved so much about Jessica, like this, she cared so much about helping me and it was so important to her. And that’s also why I like her idea of a podcast. Like this is women helping women, right? Like just women helping birthing people, like, people helping people. I just like that. Anyway.
Kiona: 1:37:02
yeah, yeah, I love that too. And I feel like we’ve touched on it a few times in the podcast that, like, the way that the world is now is so different because It’s not as common to have, like, multi generational housing, or like, actually, like, connect with the people, even in your neighborhood, to, like, have this community or this, like, village that you create for yourself to support you in times of need like this. And I… I am one of those people, I, I am one of those people that is, like, constantly talking to my siblings, like, come on, man, we all just need to create this compound and just, like, create a literal village for ourselves. Let’s all buy houses and land and have a farm and, like, just be self sustainable, and just be there, you know? But it’s so hard, it’s definitely so hard to do that now, but it’s possible. It’s definitely possible.
Taylor: 1:37:55
It’s definitely possible. And Jessica is an example of that, like living in a different country and still being able to give me that help. Like, it’s definitely possible. It’s just, knowing, like looking for it and getting it before you’re, you know, have postpartum depression or like setting it up for yourself before. I guess You Give Birth is something that I wish I had done withÈly, and I definitely have done now with Gene and, with Ira, too.
Kiona: 1:38:21
Yeah. And so did Gene end up having a liptie as well, or?
Taylor: 1:38:26
No! So Gene is an unfortunate baby, and the reason for that is because Gene is so chill and so Sweet and barely cries, and he’s so much like that that it’s like oh crap I might have a fourth baby because Gene is like you know not reminding me that like babies are so hard I’m serious everybody was telling me before oh my god the third baby, and I’m so freaking lucky. It’s crazy. I was spent Two weeks alone with them, all three of them by myself with a two week old and a two and a half year old and a four year old in France When my husband had to come back to Mauritania for work, and then I traveled just last week. I took all of them from France to Mauritania, three children, this newborn, we came here I did it by myself and the only reason for that is because Gene is like The chillest baby that’s ever lived. He’s the easiest sleeper, breastfeeder, like, no problems. Really. Knock on wood, cause, I don’t know. It’s crazy. It’s not real.
Kiona: 1:39:25
Yeah. And so you say he’s an unfortunate baby because he unfortunately makes you think too much about having a fourth.
Taylor: 1:39:31
That’s the reason that he’s an unfortunate baby, cause he will be the reason that I’m gonna have four children.
Kiona: 1:39:36
Oh, God, that’s so funny because my third child is a terror. She is… She is definitely tooting her own horn. She is in control of her space. She is like a sour patch. She is doing all the things. It’s like, I… As a birth worker, I was always told, Oh, and I told everybody this before I had a third. I was like, I’ve been told third babies and third pregnancies are wildcards, you know? Which I think pregnancy labor, yes, totally wildcard. Most intense labor I ever went through, ever in my life. As soon as I pushed her out and sat on that bed, I was like, I can’t do this again. can’t do this again. but now, of course, like, I see how amazing she is when she is super cute, and I’m like, Oh my god, like, could we have a fourth? And then I’m like, no, because when it rains, it pours in this house. So it’s like, I don’t know what to do anymore. But yes, I, I can relate to that. I mean. I can’t relate to having a third chill baby, but I can relate to the thought of having a fourth. And you’re six weeks in already, and you’re like, we could have a fourth,
Taylor: 1:40:41
I know, it’s not, that’s, that’s how chill he is, I’m serious, I’m like, we could have one right now, bring him on, let’s have twins!
Kiona: 1:40:47
Oh, God, twins. I think it’s funny that you say that, though, because the listeners, I mean, I guess I can make you aware he has been chillin’ this whole time, you know? So, it’sTaylor: 1:41:01
right, exactly,
Kiona: 1:41:02
Yeah.
Taylor: 1:41:04
So, yeah, I have, so far, the only thing that’s different Postpartum is like, I just got, it’s just happened, and I think it was stress that started it, the stress of coming here by myself, I think, with all the kids. I have a crazy rash. That is all over my chest, all over my belly. I’ve never had psoriasis before, but, like, I don’t know, that, last night or the couple, in the last couple, I’m not really concerned about like, how I look anymore. But in the last couple days, I’ve been like, dude, this is getting everywhere, like, oh my god, this is out of control. So, I think, I think I’ll be okay, but I’ve been kind of like, feeling not so great about, you already don’t feel awesome about your postpartum body, as most people don’t, maybe some do. I mean, like, I’m proud of my body and I know what it did, but I’m like, dang, let’s, I’m ready to… You know, be able to fit into my old clothes again and all that, but with the rash I’m like, Oh man, what’s happening here?
Kiona: 1:42:04
Yeah. What is happening? Like an immune system kind of shock response or something. The first thing I think about with rashes is, like, if it is itchy or anything, I think of, like, what my grandma did for me when we had the chickenpox. It’s like, take an oatmeal bath, you know, or take a breast milk bath.
Taylor: 1:42:19
Oh yeah, that’s
Kiona: 1:42:20
all over your body. Yeah.
Taylor: 1:42:22
that’s, oh that’s such a good idea, yeah. I honestly might do that. Anyway, that’s a, a silly, maybe silly thing to complain about. It could be a lot worse. I’m having a very, really… You’re, the people listening to this are going to be like, girl, shut your mouth. Because I’m having a great postpartum experience. I’m like, help me rash, I’m not super pretty. Like,
Kiona: 1:42:42
Oh, no, it definitely, like, it has to do with everything. I don’t know. I mean, you probably know this as a mother of three now. It’s so easy to get overstimulated and to, like, think about your needs as, like, on the back burner. And so whenever you talk about them, you feel like you’re complaining or, like, you kind of feel guilty for bringing them up. Girl, talk about your rash. Talk about how that makes you uncomfortable. Like talk about the need of you needing some support there, you know? So,
Taylor: 1:43:11
right. Okay. Thank you for validating me then. Yeah, I feel bad about my rash.
Kiona: 1:43:15
Yes, and I’m sorry that you feel bad about your rash and I hope that it gets better for you soon. so, I think that now is kind of a good time to kind of wrap up the interview. I just have a few questions. The first question I have is, what is one piece of advice you would give to all pregnant people as they prepare for labor, birth, and postpartum?
Taylor: 1:43:35
Prepare as much as you, can, as much as you want to. but also, don’t be so obsessed with preparing that you forget to, enjoy your pregnant body and your baby and, And when you give birth, don’t be obsessed with controlling things or anything like that. just be sure that you remember, to take little mental pictures and think about, cherish those little, those moments that you have. Cause, I don’t know, I regret not doing that withÈly. And also, stand up for yourself. 100%. If you don’t want to do something, you can say you don’t want to do something. You have that right. You have the right and obligation to do what you think is best. And don’t let someone take that from you or make you question that, also if you don’t poop for 15 days, like don’t wait till 15 days to go to the doctor. That’s also the last piece of advice
Kiona: 1:44:31
Those are great pieces of advice. I love that. Like, so what I’m hearing is to… Do your research and find your resources, but also don’t focus so much on doing those things and not being present in the moment to enjoy pregnancy as much as possible and to know that, you can make decisions for yourself too, especially if something doesn’t feel right to you, like, listen to your intuition and your gut on making decisions throughout that time.
Taylor: 1:45:00
Yeah. Definitely. Exactly that.
Kiona: 1:45:03
I love that. The final question that I have for you, Taylor, is if you could describe your three pregnancies, births, labors, postpartums, and all of that, in one word, what would it be?
Taylor: 1:45:14
I think I would say transformative is the biggest. Transformative and wild.
Kiona: 1:45:20
Yes. Yeah. I love that. And that seems to be a reoccurring word on the podcast because it, it’s so, it totally is. Right? Giving birth to another human, going through that whole pregnancy, labor, birth, postpartum. It’s very transformative.
Taylor: 1:45:36
Yeah.
Kiona: 1:45:37
Yeah. I was actually I was just talking to a friend of mine, and she is a mother of two, and she says, Man, I wish people would just tell you, like, when you know that you’re having a baby, that it just fucks you up. Like, it’s just, it just fucks you up because you’re spread so thin, but you love them so much, and you’re just, you’re just fucked up, man.
Taylor: 1:46:05
That actually reminds me, I have like this little, something that I wrote when I had postpartum depression withÈly. he was not even a month old yet. Can I read it?
Kiona: 1:46:15
Yeah, absolutely.
Taylor: 1:46:16
I said, It has been a month of having Èly our lives. All of those moms who make this look easy, I hate you for lying to me. This has been the most challenging month of my life. Breastfeeding is hard. Not sleeping is hard. Fighting with my boyfriend while a baby is screaming is hard. Not showering or eating until 4pm is hard. Being the most important person in a living being’s life is hard. Having to make sure someone doesn’t die 24 hours, 7 days a week, with no break, ever, is hard. And I’m not going to say, but it’s all worth it at the end, because that’s what you’re supposed to say so people don’t think you’re a bad mom. Am I happy? On the good days. On the bad days, I am extremely sad, and I cry, andÈly cries, and I hold him and think about all of the ways that I’m probably fucking up, and thinking about how fucked up I am. Like, that just reminded me so much of that. Like, it fucks you up!
Kiona: 1:47:04
it really does. It just fucks you up.
Taylor: 1:47:08
Yeah.
Kiona: 1:47:09
And I mean, you just kind of feel fucked for the rest of your life in a different way. But, I don’t know. I don’t know. Just have your feelers out. Have your village, you know?
Taylor: 1:47:22
conflicting thing because God, I love, it’s, it’s crazy to feel these two feelings at once. You know,
Kiona: 1:47:28
Mm hmm.
Taylor: 1:47:29
I love my kids more than you, so do you, so do you, you know, like you love your kids more than you can even describe with words. And also my life is totally different. And you know. Fucked
Kiona: 1:47:42
Yeah. Fucked up. Yeah. Yeah. It’s so real. It’s so real. And, yeah, I just think that it’s so important for this kind of brings me back to the candy wrapper analogy in episode 33 with Jenny Joseph where she talks about how, after you give birth to a baby, the mom is the candy wrapper and the baby’s the candy, and everybody throws the candy wrapper away. Like, they don’t pay enough attention to the candy wrapper, the birthing person, postpartum. And so, there’s a lot more. Chance of feeling extra fucked up because you’re like, Who do I turn to for this? Where do I go? and not having lactation consultants in France is kind of like blowing my mind because it’s so strong over here in the Pacific Northwest. I know that there are more lactation resources here in the Pacific Northwest than there are even in other states in the U. S., but you saying that it’s, like, completely, like, basically non-existent in France is, it blows my mind a little bit.
Taylor: 1:48:46
Yeah, it’s really crazy. And so, and I said the word transformative because I really feel like my experience with it, especially withÈly and also with Ira, I guess. and I’m sure with Gene I just haven’t processed it yet. I’m, like obsessed with, Trying to figure out how I can be a resource like either whether that’s in France where I’m saying Oh, they don’t have lactation consultants, but like here in Mortenia where they don’t have like, you know a nurse like I They they transform me obviously in the sense of like Into a mom and into a new person that they’ve transformed like my, my interests in life also and like my passions in life and like I want to use what that has done to like help people here, for example, or like maybe I do want to go to France and like do something with lactation because it’s so important and it’s so crazy to me that there can be so few resources for women and it’s everywhere. It’s not only in France or in Mauritania. I know that there are like in rural areas in the United States and stuff like that. Like anyway, Yeah. Okay.
Kiona: 1:49:57
Yeah. No, I love that. I think that’s important because you’re basically saying it didn’t just, like physically or even mentally transform you into being a parent, but it’s transformed your, your outlook on life in multiple ways, like being a parent, but also being a resource for people that went through what you went through three times now, So Taylor, thank you so much for being on the podcast today. I think that it’s absolutely amazing. I love your story. I think that it’s great. It’s so awesome to kind of get the perspective and like hear what it’s like across the world. cause I’m pretty familiar with how birth happens here in the Pacific Northwest, but birth happens everywhere. And so I love hearing how it’s happened for you in between Africa and France. So thank you for being on the podcast.
Taylor: 1:50:48
thank you for having me. Thank you. Thank you.
Kiona: 1:50:49
Yeah, absolutely. Interviewing tailored for this episode was so much fun. I truly enjoyed being able to connect with her, even though she’s all the way across the globe. I also found a ton of value in her experience when talking about the way that the language barrier impacted her care and how having a supportive partner impacted her care and having that person by her side that could advocate for her throughout her entire journey. With that said, Taylor, thank you so much for connecting with me and sharing your story on the podcast. I’m super happy that we were able to connect and get your story out there. And to all the listeners, if you enjoy Taylor’s story, as much as I did, don’t hesitate to leave a review. And share this episode with your friends and family. As for next week, I had the opportunity to connect with an amazing person named Sarah Elizabeth. Sarah Elizabeth talks about how her strength and confidence in herself made it possible for her to have a strong and empowering birth experience, even though it wasn’t what she initially intended. She utilized the agency of her voice to make the decisions that were necessary for her and her family. And it was such an amazing story to hear through that lens. So tune in next week to hear Sarah Elizabeth’s story. All right, bye. For now.
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