39-Whitney Hardie-3 Vaginal Births-Eleanor, Wren & Willow-Bentonville Birth Services 

November 22, 2023Posted inBirth Center Birth, Home Birth, Hospital Birth, Postpartum Depression/Anxiety, Vaginal Birth
39-Whitney Hardie-3 Vaginal Births-Eleanor, Wren & Willow-Bentonville Birth Services 

Description:

In this episode, Whitney shares her three very different birth stories, how the obstetric violence she experienced during her first pregnancy and labor impacted her 2 subsequent births, and how she struggled with postpartum depression, especially after her mother’s suicide soon after the birth of her second child. 

Disclaimer: This podcast is intended for educational purposes only with no intention of giving or replacing any medical advice. I, Kiona Nessenbaum, am not a licensed medical professional. All advice that is given on the podcast is from the personal experience of the storytellers. All medical or health-related questions should be directed to your licensed provider. 

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Transcription of Episode 39:

[00:00:00] Kiona: Hello, and welcome to Birth As We Know It. I am your podcast host, Kiona Nessenbaum. I have experienced birth as a doula, a student midwife, and as a mother of three amazing children with my husband and high school sweetheart by my side. After attending over 130 births, including my own, I’ve realized that each birth experience is truly unique.

So make sure you subscribe and join me every week as we are guided through many different birth experiences through the lens of the storyteller. Please be aware that some of the stories can be triggering to hear, so feel free to pause, take a breath, and come back and listen whenever you’re ready. With that said, let’s prep ourselves to dive deep and get detailed about what really happens in the birth space.

As a reminder, this podcast is intended for educational purposes only, and has no intention of giving or replacing any medical advice. All advice that is given on the podcast is from the personal experiences of the storytellers. All medical or health related questions should be directed to your licensed provider. Also there is mention of suicide in this episode at one hour and 30 minutes. And it’s talked about for about five minutes.

 Before we dive into this episode, I want to read a podcast review with you. This review was written by X X cuddle muffin, X, X, and it’s titled real stories, real people, raw emotions. And it’s rated at five stars. They right. Kiona is doing something. So, so, so, so good here so far. 

My favorite episode is number 28. This is such a good episode. I felt so invested in the story. It doesn’t even feel bothersome that it’s a long one. It had me wanting to come back and listen. I can’t wait to hear more stories to come. Thank you so much. X X cut them off an X, X. I’m excited to hear how you feel about the podcast. And I look forward to providing more stories for you. 

To you who’s listening right now. It would be amazing to hear how you feel. Go ahead and write a review because I am actually running out of reviews to read for my episodes. So let me know how you feel so I can let everybody else know as well. And if you haven’t already follow me on Instagram @birthasweknowitpodcast. All right. Let’s dive into the episode. 

Hello, everybody, and welcome back to the Birth As We Know It podcast. Today I’m excited to have on Whitney Hardie. And Whitney is the owner of Bentonville Birth Services, where she is a doula and birth photographer for her clients. So welcome Whitney. Thanks for coming on.

[00:02:45] Whitney: Hi, I’m so excited to be here.

[00:02:48] Kiona: Yeah. So let’s go ahead and dive in by you first starting off by telling us a little bit about yourself and who’s in your family.

[00:02:54] Whitney: Okay, like you said, my name is Whitney. I live in Bentonville, Arkansas, and I live here with my husband, Joe, our three daughters, Eleanor, Wren, and Willow, and our dog, Marlo. That’s our family.

[00:03:09] Kiona: Oh, I love it. And I’m super excited to dive into these birth stories because they are in three different locations, which brings three different environments of everything. 

[00:03:20] Whitney: Absolutely yes.

[00:03:21] Kiona: Yeah. So before we dive too deep into the birth stories, let’s talk a little bit about your conception journey with Eleanor.

How was that?

[00:03:28] Whitney: I would say it was pretty straightforward and uncomplicated. it took us about five months to get pregnant once we decided that we wanted to start trying to have a baby and it probably took that long just because I really didn’t know anything about fertility or cycle tracking so we were just sort of not preventing and hoping that it would happen. Even though at the time, it felt like every month that I had a period, it felt so long. in hindsight, five months really isn’t that long to get pregnant with a first baby. So we were fortunate in that aspect.

[00:04:06] Kiona: Yeah, I definitely also understand it feeling super long, because once you start trying, you start trying to also pay attention to all of the little details that come along with the full menstrual cycle. And you’re like, God, I didn’t know that this two week wait feels like eons.

[00:04:24] Whitney: Well, and that would just be a recurring theme throughout my motherhood journey is all the things I didn’t know. As I went along and kind of like adding in educational pieces along the way. But I think because we didn’t have a complicated fertility journey, I just. I never had to learn that much about my cycle.

and it’s only now as my daughters are getting to the age of having their own menstruation that I’m realizing, oh my gosh, I need to read more and understand more so that I can, teach them and help them to have more control and understanding than I did.

[00:05:02] Kiona: Yeah. Ooh, I love that. And I think that brings up a good point of, As you’re teaching your daughters, you’re also learning about it yourself, and you’re like, Ooh, that would have been really good to know.

[00:05:11] Whitney: Absolutely.

[00:05:12] Kiona: Yeah. Oh, that’s awesome. Before you had given birth to Eleanor, had you attended any births prior?

were you already a birth worker, or was that your first birth experience?

[00:05:27] Whitney: So, I had not been to any births, but I was terrified of birth because my mother gave birth to me when she was 16 years old, and she was in no way prepared to be a mother, and we Both of us, she and I grew up in this very enmeshed relationship. And so my baby album with all of my, baby pictures, when you open up the first page, it’s just like pictures of my mother in a terrible labor with me.

[00:05:59] Kiona: Oh, no.

[00:06:01] Whitney: It’s like you turn the page and all of a sudden there’s my crowning head and so that was sort of my introduction to childbirth was like my mom talking about how hard it was and how awful it was 

and looking back on it I’m like of course it was awful for you. You were a child and You know it was 1986 and so Lamaze was really big and she wanted to have this baby unmedicated And she just had a really long first labor. So I just always grew up hearing that childbirth was, oh, just terrible and 

something that I would beg to be saved from. yeah, I, I honestly thought as I was growing up that if I ever became pregnant, I just thought it would be one extended anxiety attack until I finally had the baby.

Cause I just had that kind of level of fear around it.

[00:06:59] Kiona: Yeah, and I think that is just proof that words have power, man. hearing your mom talk about how hard it was and how you would be begging for it to end, oh gosh, that would definitely plant some negative seeds in your mind about what birth actually is. That goes to just show how her experience very much impacted the possibility of what your future experiences would have been.

[00:07:25] Whitney: Hmm.

[00:07:27] Kiona: So, ooh,

[00:07:28] Whitney: It does. Yeah. And so when I became pregnant, my husband and I, I had just graduated college and he was still in college. So we were living in an on campus housing situation with a bunch of other married couples who were starting their families. So we were, we were young and everyone around us was young and a lot of people were getting pregnant and giving birth and The vibe was definitely like medicalized.

It was just everyone that I talked to was like you’re gonna definitely want an epidural No one was talking about birthing outside of the medical industrial complex. That was not language that we had access to. so when I became pregnant, I got very curious and just very intentional about like, what kind of birth do I want to have?

I was 23 years old when I delivered my first child. And so I felt like I had some more resources and I had more stability in my life than I knew my mother had. So I was definitely looking to birth as an experience and a rite of passage and something that I knew I wanted to be mindful of and not just something to happen to me.

So I had one friend in that whole neighborhood. Who had had her baby unmedicated and she was like the only person I knew who had done that and who was like you can do this if you want to like this is totally possible. So I’m sure a lot of people like recognize that when you have that one friend in the sea of voices that’s telling you you can’t do it.

It’s impossible. You know, just so much doubt whenever you dare tell anyone that you would like to have your baby a particular way. And so this one friend was really my, like lighthouse in a way where she, we were able to share information and tell each other about positive things we were learning about births.

And yeah, it was great.

[00:09:31] Kiona: love that. I love that you were able to actually have access to that friend. Because imagine if you didn’t and all you were hearing was, highly medicalized conversations and stories and experiences from the people around you, I imagine that that could really instill some doubt in your own ability to just have an unmedicated birth.

And so, was it the moment that your friend told you she had an unmedicated birth that made you decide that that was something you wanted to do? 

[00:10:02] Whitney: I think probably, this was 13 years ago, so it’s a little hard to nail down exactly the order of things. I think when you’re pregnant, you’re intensely curious, like it’s hard to think about anything other than this baby that’s growing inside of you and how this is all going to shake out.

So I was definitely in a phase of like taking in a lot of information and talking about it with people. I did want to circle back to what you said, like, what we’re exposed to has a huge impact on what we think is possible. 

Like, my daughters now, having known my birth stories and also the things I share with them as a birth worker, they have a completely different concept of the normalcy of childbirth.

And, and there is so much more open in their minds. so many more possibilities available to them. So I just think that’s powerful. Like this podcast is allowing us to share the wide variety of the ways that birth can go, which I just, the access to information is huge.

[00:11:04] Kiona: yeah, I agree. And I also think what a blessing for your daughters, what a blessing for your daughters to be exposed to the complete opposite almost of what you were exposed to, and just being able to have those conversations with them saying, birth can go multiple ways.

 What you had just told me. You could also talk to your daughters about, about how your first exposure to birth was what your mom was telling you , but you decided to take a slightly different path and now you are passing along your experiences with them and also through your work, communicating with them about the ways in which you support people as they birth their babies is also amazing, 

[00:11:43] Whitney: Absolutely. 

[00:11:44] Kiona: Yeah. It reminds me similarly to the conversations that I have with my kids, because my kids are 10, 6, and 2, but my six year old. The other day we were just having a conversation and he just, said, I would never want to be a woman. And we were like, why? And we were thinking it would be something, you know, super random.

But he was like, because they have to go through childbirth. That is super painful. I would never want to do that. You know, I’m just like, this six year old mind comes up with that as a reason why he wouldn’t want to be a woman.

[00:12:14] Whitney: My second and third children have both gone through phases where they’re like. I don’t want to have a baby. I never want to have a baby. And it’s just really simple to be like, well, you don’t have to have a baby if you don’t want to. Like, I know that they’re processing, they’re thinking about like, well, this looks pretty intense.

I don’t know that I want to go through that. And I’m like, of course you don’t, because you’re a child. 

So just kind of like, letting them know that I chose to have them. And that so many things are possible when you have support and options and then also letting them know like you have options You do not have to have a baby.

It’s not your destiny to have a baby So just letting them like rest from that worry when they’re six years old 

[00:12:57] Kiona: Right. Yeah, exactly. But I just think that the reason why I bring that conversation up at all is because just exposure. The kinds of conversations around birth that you have, because I am also a birth worker, so my daughter was talking about placentas in kindergarten, you know and we use anatomically correct language in our house, and so whenever we talk about like, oh, like, what’s hurting, or what’s that, and, we answer. And, because, no, I, that’s not your cookie, that’s your vulva, 

[00:13:26] Whitney: Exactly. 

[00:13:26] Kiona: because we don’t want any harm being done

[00:13:30] Whitney: and that’s all such important work. It’s all related like normalizing Childbirth is bringing language to things, normalizing, talking about these are the parts of our body, these are their functions, these are the way some people experience menstruation, these are the way some people experience, childbirth and pregnancy, like all of that knowledge is power in giving our children, options that we may not have known were available to us.

[00:13:58] Kiona: Right, yeah, exactly.

[00:14:00] Whitney: I would have to say, Along with my friend who was also in what I would call at the time like kind of like the natural mama situation interest, at the same time I had watched, The Business of Being Born 

and that was like a huge touchstone in terms of my education around What I thought maybe I wanted for birth and yeah, that film really resonated with me and that’s what got my husband and I first talking about what if we do this without an epidural, what would that look like? what if we had this baby, with some autonomy

and we kind of started from there. But we were ill prepared for the system we would be engaging with and we were under resourced. You know, it’s just classic, like you don’t know what you don’t know your first time around. 

[00:15:00] Kiona: Right. So let’s dive into that. So with your pregnancy with Eleanor, where were you located? 

[00:15:06] Whitney: Yeah, we were living in Utah, and my husband was still finishing his undergrad degree and I was pregnant with Eleanor when I graduated with my undergraduate. So, We were living in student housing and our health care was all through like the university health plan. So there was a student health center and then there were a couple of hospitals nearby where people would go to deliver their babies. We were definitely working within a medicalized system and then we were sort of doing our own Research and figuring out what we wanted and, and trying to figure out how to get that within the system.

[00:15:50] Kiona: I feel like that is a common battle for many first time parents. Going to what’s most commonly accessible , or the pathway that’s most commonly followed and doing the research along the way and figuring out how to navigate that system.

[00:16:04] Whitney: Mm.

[00:16:05] Kiona: Yeah. And it’s so interesting to me because I hear you saying, That you were in college and you guys decided to become pregnant alongside some of your peers who were also in college or finishing up their degrees, and you guys were all living together in this similar neighborhood, I think that is so interesting. I have not yet heard of something like that.

[00:16:26] Whitney: well, I’ll just say at the time, I am no longer a practicing member of the church, but we both graduated from BYU. So I think if you were to interview other people who are members of the LDS church, you would find a really similar. situation, and I think probably with maybe a lot of folks who have, a spiritual or religious background that is more structured, you might find More occurrences of this, where people are getting married young, starting their families intentionally and early.

And also a lot, like a strong culture around like our congregation, our neighborhood, our friends. It’s all one, kind of like one group.

[00:17:16] Kiona: Okay. 

[00:17:16] Whitney: yeah, that’s definitely like a unique part to our story. that religion, our religious practice was definitely like part of our experience of the decision of when to have a baby and, how we approached it.

[00:17:31] Kiona: Yeah. I think that that is a really, really great point because, everybody talks about community and the village of like raising a child and caring for a child, and it seems like it was expected in the trajectory of after being married young, the next step is to have a baby, start a family and do these things.

[00:17:52] Whitney: Absolutely. For the people that can’t see, I’m nodding my head so hard right now because it wasn’t until later in my life that I looked back and thought, wow, I didn’t even really give that a ton of. or, I didn’t really weigh my options. It was just the next step it was like, Hey, I’m going to college.

Then I meet my husband, we fall in love, we get married. We’ve been married about a year. Okay, let’s have a baby. that’s what everyone was doing. So there were definitely benefits to starting our family so young and there were benefits to starting that process within our religious community. There were also limits to that and, and downfalls, to being surrounded by people who were also very young. yeah, our village was not very diverse in terms of like age and experience.

[00:18:43] Kiona: Everybody was learning alongside each other and just following, going to the next step. That is so interesting. Let’s dive in to some of the details of your pregnancy with Eleanor. Did you experience any, health issues or any specific symptoms or anything like that?

[00:18:59] Whitney: So her pregnancy, my pregnancy with her was very uncomplicated. The things that stand out in my mind would be my husband had an internship in Houston for a summer while I was in my first trimester with her. so I was very lonely because he had a job to go to every day. And I was just like sitting in this apartment with barely any furniture.

And like it took two weeks to get the internet turned on. And had morning sickness. Looking back now, can say that I was slightly depressed, but I definitely didn’t realize it at the time. That was a little challenging. I had a huge craving for, green olives. I would eat almost a jar every two days. And it got so intense that I, at one point, realized my socks were crusty because I was sweating brine out of my feet.

[00:19:57] Kiona: Oh, no! 

[00:19:58] Whitney: was like the weirdest, and I tried to slow down after that. But that was just one of the foods that I really wanted, like blueberries and green olives.

[00:20:09] Kiona: I mean, I don’t blame you. Green olives are delicious. 

[00:20:11] Whitney: I still love them.

[00:20:12] Kiona: Yeah. 

Ha 

[00:20:13] Whitney: I just try not to eat two jars a week.

[00:20:16] Kiona: Ha ha ha.

[00:20:17] Whitney: So Yeah we went back to Provo for him to keep going to school and I continued on in the pregnancy. Um, yeah, I really didn’t have any issues. The biggest issue was my choice of provider 

because I did what I think a lot of people do I looked at the list of providers that were covered by my insurance and I kind of like pointed my finger to the page and I was like, okay, we’ll go with this guy and early in my pregnancy I said in one of my appointments with this OB that I was interested in having an unmedicated birth and he said “well you’re welcome to try that but most women don’t” and if I could go back in time to that version of myself I would take her little face in my hands and I would be like baby run. 

Run go the other way because that was It’s a clear sign at the time that he was not going to be supportive of my desires, of my autonomy, and it set the tone for how the end of the pregnancy would go and how the delivery would eventually go.

[00:21:29] Kiona: Mm. Let’s dive right in.

Let’s talk about 

[00:21:32] Whitney: Let’s do it.

[00:21:33] Kiona: Yeah.

[00:21:35] Whitney: Okay, so, as we get closer to her estimated due date, which was December 11th, my doctor starts saying, I think you need to be induced. 

we need to talk about, the fact that it’s really best if we induce you. And I continue to advocate for myself in appointments that I’m having weekly now to say I really don’t want to be medically induced because I don’t want to use Pitocin to start my labor, because of my desire to have an unmedicated birth.

So I just kept pushing this idea. I was like, I trust my body to go into labor on its own. But in the back of my mind, I was like, do I, do I trust my body? Because the longer you’re pregnant and the more that your doctor is telling you, just giving you that side eye, the harder it is to believe in yourself.

So there was like this internal battle where I was starting to doubt myself, but then I was putting on a front of like, this is going to happen. And So, as we get to my due date and then past the due date, I start going in for the periodic non stress tests and baby Eleanor had been looking so good her whole pregnancy and then he sends me for some ultrasound in which he says that like the pockets of amniotic fluid are looking low and this is a reason why we should induce and what I know now is that those late term ultrasounds are so unreliable, and I had done enough research that when I went in to meet with him, I was able to say well, that’s one way to measure is like the total sum of the three pockets.

But another way is also if you just look at one pocket and I do have one pocket and I like had the printout and I was like, according to this one pocket, it does amniotic fluid level is fine. And I remember the like. I don’t know if he was a med student or, a resident someone. He just kind of like looked slowly to my doctor and I could tell he was really pissed that I like, dared to have an opinion that was contrary to his.

[00:23:45] Kiona: Right.

[00:23:46] Whitney: So, I go in for the non stress test. She always looks fine. He continues to say, You need to be induced and then at one of these late appointments, he’s checking my cervix and I remember being like, ah, wow, that was more intense than usual and it’s not until he removes his hand that he informs me that he swept my membranes and I didn’t even know at the time to be upset by that.

It just was something I kind of noted. But yeah, Putting your hand inside someone’s vagina and, sweeping their membranes without consent is obstetric violence. And I’m a lot more comfortable to say that now. So that was like the second point where I would have been like, Run 

[00:24:33] Kiona: Run fast 

[00:24:34] Whitney: Leave him in the dust. Yes. I just didn’t. I always love to say this to my clients, because I feel like women and birthing people can’t hear this enough. It is never too late to fire your provider. It literally does not matter what your insurance situation is. The impact that they will have on your birth is so important and you can fire them when you are in labor.

it is never too late to say, I’m not doing this with you. And the me now would totally do that, but at the time, I was young, I was trying to be polite, I was working within the system, I really wanted him to still like me and think that I was a good patient.

[00:25:13] Kiona: Mmm.

[00:25:14] Whitney: Yeah.

[00:25:16] Kiona: Mmm. That is heavy. That’s heavy. And I’m just sitting here as you’re talking just nodding. I am nodding and just like having my my emotions over here. because that is very, very, very unfortunate. And he definitely utilized That power dynamic of, I’m the provider, we’re going to do a vaginal exam, and I’m not going to tell you, but I’m going to do what I think I need to do. The minimal thing that I can do to force you into labor. 

Because you were post dated at that point, it sounds like, and he’s like, yeah, we’re going to have an induction. If it’s not going to be medicalized, I’m going to play with your cervix, stretch it out, do all the things to make it to where you don’t have a say, really.

[00:26:02] Whitney: Yeah. It, yeah, it’s unacceptable. And it was… Well, there were more barbaric things that happened later in the story. So I’ll just say that was a foreshadow of the way that this doctor practiced. During one of these late stage appointments, He said something that stuck in my mind forever, and that I will never forgive him for.

Here I am, very pregnant, vulnerable, obviously the choices I’m making around my body, my birth, I’m making because I care for my unborn child. When I said that I did not want an induced labor, he said, “Well, you are weighing your desire for an unmedicated birth against the possibility of a dead baby.” he said those words to my face, and I remember my face just Flushing and I was just like trembling with anger And that was kind of the end of the conversation, and I went to my car, and I just cried because we’re not even in the realm of talking about not getting support. We’re talking about cruelty in his words to try to manipulate me to do what he thought was best.

[00:27:24] Kiona: Right.

[00:27:25] Whitney: And I remember calling my husband and just being like, this is what the doctor said to me and I’m so, just so upset. Because you’re always thinking, I had never had a baby before. So I’m still standing on the precipice of, can I do this? What will this be like? And, and now my doctor has planted this idea that like, what if something goes horribly wrong and it’s my fault? 

[00:27:46] Kiona: And that’s thing we can’t control it. There are things that do unexpectedly go wrong, but because he said those words to you, if anything at all did ever go wrong, you already felt like you were to blame. you already felt like you were to blame.

[00:28:01] Whitney: So yeah, I definitely, there was a dynamic between my doctor and I, that was definitely like me versus him, like me and my baby versus this doctor and this system. And so I did feel alone and he eventually got me to agree to an induction date at, I think it was like, 41 weeks.

And what ended up happening, I had no signs of pre labor. I was pretty, like, classic first time mom in the sense that, like, no warm up contractions and just no nothing. And I was like, doing all the things, and doing all the walking, and pleading with the universe, and having really awkward sex, just anything to try to have a baby. And then I just gave up, and I was like, whatever, she’ll come, or she won’t, and I’ll get induced on this day, whatever.

And my grandmother was in town, because she was there, I wanted her to be with me in the delivery room. my mom was actually incarcerated at the time, so that was like a, a pain point in terms of like, becoming a mother and not having this relationship with my mother that I wanted. But there we were in this like little tiny apartment that my husband and I shared on campus and my grandma’s like sleeping on the futon and just waiting days and days and days are we ever going to have this baby and we had some friends over to play board games because that’s what Mormons do for fun and we all go to bed at like 11 p. m. and I remember actually that evening sitting on the toilet to go to the bathroom and I felt a distinct shift like I felt something like like engage like drop and I came out of the bathroom and I was like, that was weird. I don’t know what that was, but something like clicked into place and it was just a few hours after that, that I woke up gripping the pregnancy pillow and Just saying, Oh my gosh, I can’t do this.

Why did I think I could do this? Because I was awoken by a strong contraction, like in my dreams, I think I thought I was having my period but it’s when I awoke at 2:30 in the morning, I was in heavy labor. They were three minutes apart. It was like, this is happening.

[00:30:23] Kiona: It was go time from the get go.

[00:30:25] Whitney: She was like, hey, I took my time, but now that I’m thinking about coming, it’s going to be fast.

So… I get up, I wake my husband up, they’re three minutes apart, but I’m just like, we are not going to that hospital until, I’m, I’m going to wait until the very last minute. I get in the shower. Oh, I used hypnobirthing to prepare for the labor, so I was definitely thinking those mantras, using a lot of like relaxation, and in my mind I was thinking, I’m going to stay calm, I’m going to Relax and invite these surges to grow stronger.

I’m going to be with them. and so laboring at home was just like swaying my hips and leaning up against the wall and then waking my grandma up to say that it was. It’s getting close to time spent some time in the shower and I was like, Oh, I love this. It cuts the pain in half, 

feeling that water on my back, going to the bathroom a lot, like just a lot of pee breaks.

It felt so good to empty my bladder. Then all of a sudden I was like we got to go to the hospital and I felt like no one could move fast enough Like no one understood. I said we have to go now And I have three contractions on the way out to the car and my husband opens the door for me And I’m like forget it dammit Joe just get in the car.

Like I don’t need you to just Get me there. And the whole, just classic, like driving, being mad at every speed bump, every red light, feeling like this is the worst thing of my entire life. And then we finally get there. I’d been in labor. We get there at 5 50 in the morning. So it’s shift change. We just arrive at shift change.

And I meet this nurse and she Puts me in this little tiny recovery room. That’s like a closet and she checks my cervix and she’s like, “wow Congratulations, you’re five and a half centimeters. You’re doing so well”, and then she just leaves She’s like she’s like look we’re doing a shift change and we’re really full tonight But you just chill here and someone will be here and you know, they put me on the strip Basically, they’re trying to get there like 20 to 30 minutes of heart monitoring on the baby. So I’m standing in this room And I feel like they’ve just forgotten about us. Cause you know, when you’re in labor, your sense of time is all kinds of weird. And there’s no bathroom in this room and I have to pee. And so finally my husband just pushes a trash can over to me. Between my legs and I just urinate in that trash can and I’m like, oh my gosh, I feel so much better

[00:33:08] Kiona: Good on your husband. Good job, Joe.

[00:33:10] Whitney: Yeah, he’s like we’re gonna solve this problem

[00:33:12] Kiona: Yeah.

[00:33:13] Whitney: so then the new nurse comes in and I’m just thinking of myself like oh I’m gonna get into that room with the jacuzzi tub that I’ve been promised and I’m gonna keep on laboring and it’s all gonna be good and She walks us to our room and it Must be quite the sight because my grandma’s like carrying our little boombox.

this is 2009 so I don’t have any sort of iPod or anything. We’re just like CDs like meditation CDs in the CD player and we’re just shuffling through the labor ward and We get into the room and I noticed there’s no tub and I said, what’s up with this? Like well, we’re really full tonight and there’s not a tub room available And I was like, okay, well that’s some bullshit, but whatever.

[00:33:59] Kiona: Right.

[00:34:00] Whitney: So I keep laboring and, my preferred way to labor was on my two feet, leaning against my husband, like a slow dance where I would just drill my forehead into his sternum 

and lean forward and keep my knees really soft and just sort of rock and sway. And At some point I remember, I’m verbalizing, I’m vocalizing a lot, and the, the nurse is saying, like, Do you feel it more in your back or and I was just like I don’t I didn’t really have words to explain what I Was feeling I was like everything below my sternum is a ball of pain.

That’s all I know

[00:34:39] Kiona: Yeah, it’s a pretty good explanation, I would say,

[00:34:42] Whitney: Yeah, so at some point she says well you’re doing great You just let me know when you feel a lot of pressure and you want me to check you and so I go along and I keep laboring and then at some point I’m like I’ve I feel a lot of pressure, I think you should check me and I’m feeling like, you know, it’s got to have been a couple hours since we got here.

So she checks me and I’m a 6. And I was like, oh no, mm mm. No,

[00:35:06] Kiona: cause you were 5 and a half when you first got checked 

[00:35:07] Whitney: I was five and a half and now I’ve been working so hard and I’m a six and I was just like I think they You know tried to distract me like sent me to the bathroom to do because everyone knew that I didn’t want an epidural

but I’m doing the mental game at this point that I think we all who everyone who attends women in birth knows that you’re doing that Math and you’re like, okay, it took me this long to do half a centimeter and it’s gonna and so at some point These contractions are really intense.

They’re like right on top of each other and I start to say I can’t do it I cannot do this and my nurse Jill. She says you can totally do this, honey You’re just in transition and like being the smarty pants that I was I was like transition doesn’t even start till seven And I’m not even at seven. I’m just like mad at everyone and Then I finally say Oh gosh, I’m a little, I’m a little unclear about what happens first, but at some point I’m having contractions, and I feel this like… This crazy pop I like hear it feel it and the thought in my mind was I just broke my back 

I was like that was my vertebrae. I just was so sure like that’s looking back I was having back labor and that’s why when I heard that pop I thought it was my back 

But then the water came out. So I let everyone know Hey, my water just broke and if I thought it was intense before that it really hit The fan after the water broke, her heart rate dropped at, in the time that my water broke.

And so all of a sudden, all these people rushed into the room and they put me on the bed on my side and they put an oxygen mask on me. And it was very scary. And, my nurse, Jill was like, we’re still trying to get her heart rate up and it’s not really recovering. So I need to use my hand to stimulate her scalp.

She… puts her hand up in my vagina and is like pushing past my cervix and like rubbing my daughter’s scalp. And I am screaming. I’m like, I hate you. You’re the worst person. I’m just like losing it. And she’s so empathetic and compassionate. She’s like, I know, sweetheart. I’m so sorry. So they get the heart rate to recover, and then I don’t really feel like this was a discussion.

They just kind of informed me that because I’m not able to keep the monitors on my belly, and they’ve had this scare with the heart rate, they’re going to insert, a heart rate monitor into her scalp. 

And I don’t think that I was fully aware of what this tool was, and that it was like a, Almost like a little teeny tiny screw that went under the scalp.

I’m just sort of in labor land trying to cope and also at this point some other nurse informs my nurse that there’s meconium in the water and so my nurse says well we’re also going to put in like a tiny hose that will put saline up inside to try to dilute the meconium in the hopes that she won’t need respiratory help when she’s born. So now I’ve got like, I don’t know, what do we have, like two wires coming out of my vagina taped to my leg. It’s definitely not the vision of the unmedicated autonomous birth that I had. Also, we switched from a hep block to a full IV when we had the heart rate drop. 

But I’m just like gritting my teeth and getting through this and I get back up on my feet I find with all my labors that standing on my own two feet is like my Position like I am above the contraction I feel like I can cope any kind of laying down is just horrible so at this point I I think that I, it gets blurry about how many times someone checked me.

I mean the hands were just up there.

[00:39:12] Kiona: Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

[00:39:14] Whitney: And at this point, I don’t even care. I’m like, I’m just hoping that one of these times they’re gonna put a hand up there and be like, it’s time to push.

[00:39:20] Kiona: Right, right.

[00:39:22] Whitney: So during one of these checks, I get informed that I’m still six centimeters and I was like, that’s it. That is it.

And I turned to everyone I said, I want an epidural. I want an epidural now and they’re like, you’re doing it, you’re doing so great and I looked them in the eye and I was like, I know what I told you and I changed my mind and I want the epidural. I want to enjoy meeting our daughter and I’m like crying to my husband.

I’m like, just believe me, 

I want an epidural. So they’re like, okay, we’ll call the anesthesiologist and this is a really important turning point in my birth because I give up. I have been strong. I have been logical. I have been telling myself that I need to prove to everyone around me that I’m strong enough to do this.

I need to keep my noises under control. I need to convince people that I can do it without an epidural. And now that I have said I want one, I lay down on that bed and I just like surrender and I let go and in my mind I’m dealing with all of this like disappointment in myself, , but also just a lot of pain from these contractions that are right on top of each other.

And so I’m doing this thing in my mind where I’m like, it’s totally fine. So the birth isn’t going how I wanted. That’s fine. I just want the relief. And I’m also like yelling. Like just really letting it go because in my mind I’m thinking I don’t hope this whole hospital hears me I hope this whole hospital knows the kind of pain that I am in and I’m like, maybe he will hurry up If he hears me

[00:40:59] Kiona: yes. That anesthesia call.

[00:41:03] Whitney: yes, so I go from being like To be like, oh, you 

know just like really I want everyone to know that I am suffering.

 I wait about an hour for the epidural. I have this like time where I’m laying in bed, just like, you know, gripping the side of the hospital bed and just really having my process as I would say it. And then at some point I start going like, ooooh, uuuhhh And my nurse says, Hey, it sounds like you might be pushing.

Do you want me to check you? And see if it’s time? And I was like, yeah. Whatever. So she texts me and she’s You’re 9 centimeters! And right then, the anesthesiologist comes in with his cart, and he’s like, Hey, I’m here! And I was like, Get out! Forget it. Like I’m nine centimeters now. I can do this. What took you so long?

[00:42:02] Kiona: Yeah.

[00:42:04] Whitney: So I get this like Renewed energy I get back up on my two feet and I’m like one centimeter to go and like my eyes are on the prize I’m having this baby So jill checks me a couple other times and she keeps saying something about a cervical lip Like you just have this one itty bitty lip and it won’t get out of the way and at some point I was like cut it I don’t need my whole cervix just Cut it.

Like, I was just so desperate. And at some point she checks me during a contraction, and she can see that the lip is reduced during the contraction. So she’s like, I’m going to call you complete. So I’m like, great, let’s do this. Let’s push a baby out. And she goes, well, I’m going to call your doctor over, because he had This is like the early morning hours now and his clinic was like attached to the hospital.

It was like the next building over so he’s seeing patients and she’s gonna call him over to the hospital. And I just turned to everyone in the room and I say we don’t need him. I don’t like him. This isn’t about him and I look at Jill the nurse and I’m like you could catch this baby. I know you’ve done it.

and she kinda laughs and shes like, well, he’s been your doctor the whole time. You’re going to want him here. And I, again, reiterated, this is not about him. And I, I really don’t care. So they tell me kind of like not to push, to just wait until he gets there. Let’s like, that’s ridiculous telling a woman not to push. So I am having this urge to push and I’m giving into it as I’m able to. Doctor walks in and he examines me. And. I hear him whisper something to the nurse, and then she’s like, Oh, I didn’t realize. And she, they inform me that my baby is posterior. 

is presenting in an OP, fashion. And this is suddenly making a lot of sense, why I had so much back labor, why I kind of like got hung up at 6 centimeters for a long time, why I had an early urge to push, like all these things are making sense.

As a birth worker looking back, but as a, woman about to have her first baby. I’m aware that he comes over to the side of the bed because they make me lay down every time they want to check me even though I hate it. He comes over to the side of the bed, and he’s like, look, your baby is facing sunny side up.

You could try to push her out, but I don’t think you’ll be able to, so I can turn her with forceps, but I’m, that’s gonna be really painful, and I’m not willing to do that unless you get an epidural. And I was like, what the hell is with this man and his obsession with me not being able to have this baby?

So, I looked him in his eyes and I was like, I want to push. And he turns to the nurse and he says, call me when she’s ready for an epidural. And he leaves.

[00:45:01] Kiona: Ugh, God, uh, I don’t this guy 

[00:45:04] Whitney: I hate him. I hate him. so much. So he leaves and I’m like, good, he’s gone. Let’s get back to having a baby. So they call another nurse in, you know, I’ve got my grandma on one side helping me with one leg.

I’m in sort of a semi reclined position. I asked if I could push standing up because I was like, this is how I want to have this baby. And they said, no, you cannot. And I, I’m done fighting. 

I’ve got tubes. I also have, oh yeah, this happens later. Okay. So I start pushing. They’ve got the, the bed sheet in the like loop.

So we’re doing the tug of war. 

[00:45:38] Kiona: 

[00:45:38] Whitney: And then at some point Jill says I need to give you a catheter because I think that your bladder is getting in the way and I’m like, I can just go pee like I’m not epiduralized. I can. She’s like, no, we can’t let you do that. So I get another tube up inside my body. So then we continue on pushing and it turns out like that motivation of him saying, if you can’t get this done, I’m basically gonna pull this baby out of you. It was like incredibly effective and I pushed like the dickens and it felt so good to push. I don’t know, it has always to me been such a relief to be done with laboring and having to like relax and and to have something to do.

So pushing felt like I didn’t even care that it hurt really because it just felt like Good to be doing something.

[00:46:32] Kiona: Right. 

[00:46:32] Whitney: Turns out, I’m just a great pusher. And, I hear the nurse say, we need to get that doctor back in here. And that just like gets me, I’m like, Well maybe I can have her before the doctor even gets here.

So I’m just pushing even harder. And then she’s like yelling, She’s like, We needed the doctor in here yesterday. Where is he? And he walks in with his medical student like, as I’m crowning, basically. so I’m just like, this is happening. The sun is coming up. Let’s have this baby. Let’s be done with this.

And I’m really into pushing. And then at some point it starts to burn. And I’m like, well, it’s got to get worse. That’s not it. That’s not the full burn. And I’m like psyching myself up. Cause you know, I’m like, I’m going to make it. And then, I’ll tell you more about what happens at this moment later, but the way that I experienced it in the moment is I started to stop pushing on a contraction and everyone was like, don’t stop, don’t stop, she’s right there.

And I gave it one more good push and her whole self slid out. Head, shoulders, body. She just, boom, she’s born. And I laid back and just felt like the biggest relief and my first thought was, I never have to do that again. I survived. I’m done. Like I, you would think I had been through a war because I just, I laid back and I took a nice deep breath and they did not bring her right to my chest because of the meconium.

She went over to the warmer to have the respiratory therapy team look at her and It’s kind of hard to admit this and say this, but it’s just my story, so I’ll say it. I didn’t care. I was, I like, at that moment, I was only really worried about me, because I was like, holy shit.

At some point, like a couple minutes later, my husband brought her over to me, and she was all wrapped up, like classic hospital style for that time. And he hands me this bundle, and I look down at her, and I’m like, she’s so beautiful, and she’s… so perfect. And then I’m kind of like back to my normal self, like my non labor self.

And I’m aware that the doctor is, down at my vulva area with his med student. And so You know, I’d like a little, I don’t know, recognition, like, Hey girl, I didn’t think you could do it, and you did it.

But, of course, he’s not, he’s not here for that.

[00:49:13] Kiona: Of course not. You know, the dick of all dicks is like, 

[00:49:17] Whitney: yeah. literally. 

[00:49:19] Kiona: He’s pissed that you did it. That’s what it is.

[00:49:22] Whitney: Yeah, he didn’t get to pull out his forceps. So, He’s like stitching and I have no sense for like, what’s a normal amount of time to be spent on a repair? and since we already know that he doesn’t share information or you know He’s big on that like he’s not into the power sharing model of decision making.

I go ahead and ask I’m like, so I tore a little and he’s like, well you tore more than a little and that’s the only information I get about my birth injury and then later, I think after he’s done stitching, he informs me that I tore in all four directions. which I can understand because I was pushing, you know, I felt rushed.

I was pushing really hard and she was OP. So, you know, not having that gentle, crown of the head appear first. And straight, it was just sort of the whole top of her head. 

Was coming all at once. So, 

yeah, that was the birth. And, It would not be until I was preparing to have my second child with a midwife that I learned that he cut an episiotomy during my birth.

So, there was a lot that happened in the postpartum period with my first daughter, but one part of it was that I was having an awful time recovering. I could not understand why it was taking so long and why I felt such a sense of tugging and discomfort in my perineal area. of course I went to my six week appointment and he just was, I was like, ow, it’s really tender.

And he was like, oh, it looks fine. You can go back to having sex. And I was like nowhere near ready to have any sort of intercourse.

[00:51:13] Kiona: oh god, I hate this man.

[00:51:16] Whitney: I hate him so much.

[00:51:18] Kiona: I hate him so much for you, and I hate him so much for all of the patience that he had before you and after you, because you were just a number to him, unfortunately. You know, and it was this power dynamic, this power struggle of, Oh, you don’t want forceps? Okay. I understand if an episiotomy is necessary, because sometimes it is.

Sometimes they are absolutely necessary. But the fact that he did it unconsensually, without communicating with you, just like he did your cervical membrane sweep, like, communication is important, man. And then for him to be suturing you up, and to just say, yeah, you tore more than just a little bit, well, yeah, dude, you cut me.

[00:51:58] Whitney: literally no communication. So that sort of like withholding of information about my own body, like not only did he not seek consent. He, he also, that would have been the first step would be like, I think that you need an episiotomy. Do I have your permission to cut one? I would have said no,

but if there was, some kind of emergency, it needed to be done, at least saying the words I’m cutting an episiotomy.

Because then at least I have the knowledge of what happened to my own body, but then even in the follow up in the aftermath He never told me what he did so I consider that a gross violation of my rights. It took me a lot of years to be able to say like he abused me during my birth He assaulted me.

[00:52:48] Kiona: Mm hmm

Absolutely, he really did. And I am actually proud to hear you say those words. And to hear you actually… have that as a reflection and to have the power to say, he did do this, because a lot of people always try to find a reason why they didn’t, or give them the benefit of the doubt in situations, but you are the person that was going through this, trying to advocate for yourself throughout your entire pregnancy, and then come to the labor and birth.

He was going to just leave you to bits. He was like, go ahead, try, try to push. That’s fine. And then he comes in probably all huffing and puffing and be like, there’s no way. Thank you. There’s no way she’s doing this. Like, what, what tools do I need to, to make this happen? And, like you said, even if an episiotomy was like urgent or necessary, speaking the words is all it takes, And yeah, you probably still would have been pissed if he spoke those words. You would have been like, God damn it. I, I have an episiotomy now. Thanks for Doing it Unconsensually, but you would’ve had the information of knowing what went on versus being completely dumbfounded about it, like not knowing.

[00:53:55] Whitney: Completely in the dark. 

And we can talk more about how it came to light later, but, because that kind of works into my second birth story, but I just feel like the fact that he did that, that he never talked to me about it, not while I was in the hospital, not when I came to him at six weeks, that shows That he did, he assaulted me, that he hurt me, and I, I wish that I would have seen the signs beforehand because I’m a big believer now that when someone shows you who they are, you believe them the first time.

He did not need all of the benefit of the doubt that I gave him. He did not deserve all of the, he did not deserve me to keep seeing him as a patient with the disrespect that he showed me. And then I feel like it culminated in this act that was just incredibly violent and ended up definitely having an impact on my body, my emotional wellbeing. I left that birth traumatized. 

I did have language for that rather quickly, I, I realized, cause I was like, I was so confused because I was like, well, I did it. I had the unmedicated birth. I’m so proud of myself and, and I feel so strong. And yet I shouldn’t have had to fight like that. Like, why do I feel so beaten up by the experience?

I, it took me some time to realize that I didn’t feel held or supported or believed in. And so even though I did the thing I set out to do, I really had the sense that it didn’t need to be that way. I shouldn’t have had to fight that hard.

[00:55:38] Kiona: Yeah. I agree. You shouldn’t have had to fight that hard and the fact that you did. First off, you’re hella strong because I don’t know who could have just continued to, in such a vulnerable state, push, push, push, push, and push just for your own… want and rights, for your own rights of being able to try and do these things without feeling all of this pressure.

So good on you, Whitney, you are so strong. You’re a bad ass. 

[00:56:10] Whitney: Thank you so much. You’re so kind. 

[00:56:13] Kiona: Because that is, that’s hard. That is so hard and you got through it and you had time to look back and debrief with yourself and those around you, potentially, and to realize, yeah, that was traumatizing.

[00:56:28] Whitney: Yeah.

[00:56:29] Kiona: Yeah.

[00:56:31] Whitney: I think we should dive into the postpartum.

[00:56:33] Kiona: Yeah. Let’s do it. I was just about to say, let’s talk about how that experience in itself impacted your postpartum recovery.

[00:56:41] Whitney: absolutely. So I’m a big believer that people who experience a traumatic birth are at greater risk for postpartum mood disorders. What I did not know at the time that I had my baby is that I was also at a high risk for postpartum mood disorders because I had A substantially high trauma load from my childhood. And when I’m working with clients now I’m we’re always talking about their history because we do a disservice when we kind of like pick out that child birth and postpartum period as one part as you know A singular part of your life because it really is impacted by what came before so as a A young woman who had grown up with a lot of neglect, a lot of addiction in the household, a lot of turmoil.

I did not realize how wounded I would be when I had my first baby and suddenly now I’m in the position to be the mother and to give the things that my mother wasn’t able to give to me. So, my postpartum experience was definitely, um, it was awful. It was really awful. I had mastitis within the first week.

I should have gone into the ER, but I was like, well, we have to wait for the student health care center to open. So, I went to bed with a fever, and by the time I woke up in the morning, I could barely raise my arms, and I was, nauseous and I had a pounding headache. So they see me in the health center and they give me antibiotics.

I didn’t really have any lactation support to speak of. I knew that I wanted to breastfeed my baby. I’m recovering from what I now know is… I still don’t know the degree of the tearing in all of my, all of my poor vulva, vagina. but I had an episiotomy that, a medial lateral episiotomy that I was healing from.

and then there’s just the emotional, like. This baby, I love her so much, but she needs so much. And I’m so uncertain about how to feed her and I’m not getting any sleep. And I was not informed about breastfeeding. I wasn’t educated. I didn’t understand the supply and demand relationship there. I knew that I was desperate for sleep.

Uh, gosh, what else happened at some point? My husband went back to school. She was born on December 17th. We had Christmas and Then he went back to school and I was just like alone with this baby and in this really sweet community of people Everyone was saying like, oh, don’t you just love being a mother?

I love being a mother And I was like, I think I’ve ruined my whole life think I like I had this really great life and then I went and had a baby and now it’s all ruined

So I felt, I was very isolated and alone, and my husband was loving and caring, but he knew less than I did. So, he was sort of that like, I want to support you however I can, but was like, neither of us knew what 

we needed. Um, So yeah, I had a lot of judgment for myself because I thought I was gonna be a certain kind of mom and I had these really high expectations. at some point the sleep deprivation got so bad that I remember breastfeeding her in the rocking chair in the middle of the night and I, I maybe had like, I don’t know, a touch of psychosis or something because I was holding her and I had her to my breast and she was looking up at me in that way that small babies do and I felt terrified.

I felt like she was scary to me in that moment and I was scared because I was alone at night. My husband was sleeping in the next room and I was just like so disturbed by the way that she was looking at me while she was eating. And I remember putting my hand over her eyes and just like being like, okay, just feed her and put her back to bed.

And it was freaky, honestly. like it was dark and it was scary. And, I didn’t think I had postpartum depression because I kept googling the symptoms. And I didn’t, I felt connected to my baby, and I loved her, and I didn’t have any thoughts of harming her or harming myself. So I thought, I don’t have it.

And I would just like to make a PSA that if you’re googling the symptoms, You, you got a problem. 

[01:01:27] Kiona: right 

[01:01:28] Whitney: you need help.

[01:01:29] Kiona: Right. 100%. Yeah.

[01:01:31] Whitney: Yeah, and then I, I think, I was just highly anxious. Also, I had a hard time resting. I felt for a long time. It could have been like. A trauma response from the birth or from my childhood, but I was highly tuned into her and I felt like I was sleeping on top of my bed. Like I was never really resting in the bed.

I was sort of like my whole body was on call all the time. And yeah, that just lasted honestly for a long time.

[01:02:05] Kiona: Yeah. That’s, that is a lot. And I think that it’s really important to mention what you were saying about how when you were Googling the symptoms, you didn’t have a worry about harming your baby, you didn’t have a worry about harming yourself, but that, I wrote that, what you just said down, if you’re Googling the symptoms, you’ve got a problem because it’s so true because you’re looking, you’ve, that, that is an indication that you don’t feel quite right.

you don’t feel quite right, so you’re like, what is this actually? What is postpartum depression and do I have it? And I think that it’s important to mention that postpartum emotions and hormones don’t just stop at depression. There’s also anxiety, there’s also psychosis, so there’s so many different things and it’s so, so, so, so hard to put the entirety of a postpartum experience into these boxes or into these labels.

 and so I think it’s really important that you said that and mentioned that because it’s true.

[01:03:07] Whitney: Yeah, I think in recent years, we’ve gotten a lot better at expanding our definition. the very words that we use, perinatal mood disorders. that’s way better. 

and just letting people know, there’s a difference between the up and down emotions that you feel as a new parent or as a pregnant person versus the sense that you have lost yourself, that you no longer feel like yourself. You don’t have to have this very, like you were saying, narrow definition, like, Oh, I’m thinking of ending my life. No, it could just be like, I don’t feel like myself anymore. I don’t recognize myself. that is enough to say, Hey, you need some more help and support.

[01:03:49] Kiona: Yeah, 

[01:03:51] Whitney: So what ended up actually happening in my story is that we just sort of, like, outgrew it. I never got treatment for that, We just ended up moving on with our lives. My husband graduated from university and got his first job in New York City. And so we took our six month old baby and we moved to a new city and started the next chapter.

[01:04:16] Kiona: yeah, yeah. And I can tell you right now that many of the listeners can relate to that, can relate to the just moving on. 

there are some that can’t, but there are also some that can. And I would possibly say the majority of people, especially with first time children, have that experience of just moving forward and not realizing that they were actually going through things mentally, emotionally, and, hormonally until you look at your experience in hindsight.

[01:04:48] Whitney: Absolutely. I didn’t realize what had happened until it resolved.

[01:04:52] Kiona: Mm, mm hmm, yeah, oof. Yes. Okay, so I really still want to get to your next two birth experiences because this is a humongous experience and there’s no way that it did not impact the decisions you made with your future pregnancies and births. So let’s start talking about, your pregnancy with Wren. What was your conception journey with Wren?

[01:05:19] Whitney: Oh Wren She was our oopsie, baby. I was still coming out of this fog this haze after having a first baby. We moved to a new city. I had new friends. I started to get more comfortable in my parenting I left, the society we were in that felt very kind of suffocating to me.

And I met these new people who helped me understand an expanded way of being with my religion, with my parenting. And I started to feel like, oh yeah, I can do this. and I weaned Eleanor, my first. And It was like in the moment that I stopped breastfeeding, I felt like the final piece of myself came back.

I think that I am very sensitive to certain hormonal changes. And in my experience, breastfeeding my children has been really difficult. And upon weaning, I am able to like, feel like myself again.

[01:06:20] Kiona: And how old was Eleanor at this time?

[01:06:22] Whitney: Gosh, I think she was probably 9 or 10 months old. Somewhere around there.

[01:06:28] Kiona: Yeah.

[01:06:29] Whitney: she was also not really gaining weight, she wasn’t doing super, like, at the time I was like, she’s fine, I’m, breastfeeding, everything’s fine, and then I look back on pictures and I’m like, oh, that poor baby was starving.

 She took to solid food really well, and eventually I gave myself permission to stop breastfeeding her, and we just started supplementing more and more with formula as she got older, and, yeah, she really started putting on the pounds.

I’ve never been a very robust supply, especially with I think that early mastitis and all of the issues we were dealing with emotionally.

that just was never a breastfeeding relationship that I felt very comfortable or confident in. So, I stopped breastfeeding her. I start to feel like myself, I get my groove back, you might say,

[01:07:19] Kiona: hmm. Woof, woof.

[01:07:19] Whitney: and, uh, yeah, she turns a year old, and I, maybe like a month or two after that, my husband and I are, you know, having a little time alone, and I’m not using any birth control because I was a breastfeeding mom, and I say to him, hey, forget the condom, let’s make a baby, 

I say, and, The next morning I wake up and I’m like, what the hell was I thinking?

Absolutely not. I just got back to feeling good. We do not need to have another baby. And I was pregnant. I think that my body tricked me into getting pregnant . My body was like feeling frisky, feeling fertile. 

[01:07:58] Kiona: Those pretty much go hand in hand.

[01:08:00] Whitney: Yeah. So it was the one and done just like, Oh, okay. So now we’re pregnant. and I would say my pregnancy with her, I had a little bit of what I would call, like, second baby disappointment. 

Like, you know how the first time around everything is so new and everyone is so excited for you?

And then when you’re having your second baby, people are just like, Oh yeah, it’s another one.

[01:08:21] Kiona: Yeah. Which sucks, honestly. That’s a horrible feeling. Because they’re like, oh, all right. 

High five, good job. You did it again 

[01:08:29] Whitney: Good job. Business as usual. 

[01:08:31] Kiona: Yeah. So, with your pregnancy with Ren, was there any, like, health symptoms or anything with her? Any special cravings? Did you go back to green olives? 

[01:08:40] Whitney: No, I did not go. I don’t really remember cravings with her. The things that were different about her pregnancy is that I was a lot more active living in New York City with a toddler. we walked all the time. 

So, I felt very healthy and strong. I was incredibly tired. You know, in that first trimester there is no tired like first trimester when you have a toddler or a baby.

It’s just like, whew, it’s different. So my midwife ended up asking that I, or recommending that I take Floridex because I was a little anemic and that stuff tastes like rusty nails or like a nosebleed, but it worked and I had a lot better increase of energy. And then the other thing, I’m just going to go ahead and say it because I wish someone had told me it was a possibility.

I had a vulvular varicocity. Is that how you say it? Like a varicose vein. In my damn vulva.

[01:09:41] Kiona: Painful.

[01:09:42] Whitney: Oh my gosh. I had no idea. I was like, What is happening? Every time I stood up, every time I sat down, any time I moved, I felt like this horrible, painful, bulging sensation. And it was painful to walk. And I, I tried like doing these bicycle exercises with my legs to, increase the blood flow, like to get it to stop pooling in that area.

I eventually ended up wearing like a kind of support belt that looks like a jock strap that sort of just like hugged my vulva 

and because I found that I was just walking around my house like with my hand cupped underneath myself trying to like support myself. So once I started wearing this device.

Uh, it felt a lot better. And that was my biggest thing with her pregnancy is I was like, Oh wow. I had no idea that this was a possibility and it feels terrible.

[01:10:39] Kiona: Yeah, that’s a huge thing. And I, again, I don’t think that that’s actually talked about enough. There are some people that talk about like varicose veins in general with pregnancy, but they tend to be more along like the legs, talking about varicose veins, but I have heard actually more often people talking about, varicose veins on their vulva and even like on the vaginal opening and sometimes right in the internal os of the vagina.

So it is A possibility, for sure.

[01:11:08] Whitney: It is a possibility, so buyer beware, it could happen to you. 

[01:11:13] Kiona: Yeah. How did that impact your intimacy throughout your pregnancy?

[01:11:17] Whitney: Oh golly, I hardly remember. I hardly remember intimacy during my pregnancy. I will say, I do remember in the first pregnancy having that experience where the second trimester I felt very sexy, and just like really loving my… Blooming body and like I wanted to have sex all the time the second time around my husband I kept waiting for that to happen.

We were like, when is it gonna happen? 

When does the libido kick up, but We were parents now we 

were like we had a toddler. We were just beat down by the experience of having a two year old and we talked about that with each other We were like, oh gosh, it’s kind of disappointing that we don’t just I don’t just want to have sex all the time.

Like second trimester, where is it? And it was just like, I’m tired. I’m so tired. 

[01:12:05] Kiona: And I think that’s a good point that you just emphasize the I, because partners don’t necessarily understand everything that’s going on and they still got that libido. They’re like, yeah, is it now? No,

[01:12:16] Whitney: Yeah. He kept, he literally kept checking in with me. He’s like, are you feeling it? Is it, is it happening? And I was like, I don’t know, maybe it’s late this time. And then I just kept getting bigger and bigger. And I was like, I don’t think it’s coming.

[01:12:27] Kiona: Yeah. Be like, no, sorry, man So let’s go ahead and dive into your birth experience with Wren. How was it different than your experience with Eleanor? 

[01:12:37] Whitney: So different. Night and Day. So we , were living in New York City, and I met for the first time a number of women who had had their babies at home. And I think that if I hadn’t met them, I wouldn’t know that it was a possibility for me. So, it’s incredibly impactful To have friends and you can see their babies running around you can see the living proof that this was possible and did happen and they talked about their births in such a positive way and so it really I knew I didn’t want what I had before and I’m not sure If I hadn’t met these women who had had babies at home, I’m not sure that I would have known that I could do it that way.

so I, asked these friends, who was your midwife and I got a couple names and I did some research. And so my husband and I met with a midwife there in the city and interviewed her. And just immediately from the get go, a completely different. experience a different approach to childbirth.

The fact that you get to sit down and interview this person and ask them questions and they are not defensive. They can talk about their numbers, how many births do you attend? How many have you attended? How many, obstetric emergencies have you experienced? How many fetal deaths have occurred?

Like, those are things I could not Ask my doctor about and my midwife was just very upfront about, this is my experience. This is how I approach childbirth So we just felt really comfortable like yeah, let’s do this at home and then also just the power sharing this the whole change in approach Working with a provider who said to me you are having this baby. This is your birth.

This is your body. And she said, “I am here to safeguard the process. I’m here to just watch out and make sure that if you need support and you need help, I can provide that to you, but you are having this baby.” And, oh, it’s just a huge boost of, belief in myself. And it was very healing.

[01:14:49] Kiona: that leaves a lot less room for self doubt.

[01:14:53] Whitney: Mm. 

[01:14:55] Kiona: At least that’s what I feel. I feel like that would leave a lot less room for self doubt because it’s someone that’s saying, Basically, I value your opinion and your own birth experience, and I will safeguard you and guide you throughout whether or not that’s a possibility based off of your health history, based off your past experiences, and then let’s also talk about the what ifs of what it would look like if we needed to transfer, what it would look like if this happened, what it would look like with that happening.

I’m making a big assumption here, but I feel like it could be true. I’m sure your appointment lengths with your midwife were far more involved and lengthier than those with your OB.

[01:15:35] Whitney: Absolutely. . We had conversations. There was a lot more interest in, how are you Whitney? How are you feeling? Like that, understanding and respect that this is a whole process that I’m undergoing and my midwife was here to hear about anything.

What you were saying about that it doesn’t leave a lot of room for doubt is true but also it opened up my ability to be vulnerable and to express the doubts and fears that I had because I felt safe in doing it because She had an inherent trust in my ability to do this, and in the process of birth giving as a whole.

So I was able to release my fears by speaking about them openly. Whereas, I wisely knew that I couldn’t say those things to my doctor, because he would be like, Yeah, absolutely, you can’t do this, and you will need to be rescued, and you will have an emergency. 

Even though I knew that I could have a baby and I had done it before, as the time got closer to give birth, and I think this is common for a lot of people, I found myself being like, can I really do it?

You know, you’re just like, you’re trying to like, make your peace with this intense experience that you know is going to happen. And so I was able to go to my midwife and just be like, I’m still feeling some fear and anxiety. And she was able to say, “that’s really normal. And that doesn’t mean you can’t do it.”

And we can talk about and so just being able to get those feelings out of my body and say like I’m afraid that this might happen and she could just hear it and say I understand that is a scary thought. 

I don’t think that will happen, but I have a plan in case it does. Would you like to talk about that?

So just that gentleness and that tenderness, like that’s what I want for everyone who’s having a baby, is to be treated with that kind of respect and care.

[01:17:30] Kiona: Yeah. I love that. And I’m just even, we’re not even at the birth yet, but I’m just so happy because I already know your story won’t be as traumatizing,

[01:17:40] Whitney: You know it’s going to be a redemptive birth, like you, you have the feeling.

[01:17:45] Kiona: Let’s go. Let’s go. Let’s go. Let’s talk about it. 

[01:17:48] Whitney: Okay. So just like her sister, like you know the due date came and went, but I think my body was more efficient this time around. 

So it wasn’t five days past the estimated due date. It was just one day. And I had really tender experience, on the day of the due date, walking with my toddler through this beautiful park in New York City with my big round belly and realizing like, hey, this is the end of our time as just her and me. And it felt really special and I was really excited that we were going to welcome this baby at home. And I thought that maybe I’d have my two year old there with us.

so I, I go back home. The day of, or maybe the day after the due date, I have, my midwife comes over. I did not have a single cervical exam during the whole experience. she takes my blood pressure, we talk, she measures, all the things. And she’s like, okay, well, we’ll just see what happens. She leaves my house, and a friend came over, and we were chatting, and it’s like, mmm, like 5 o’clock in the evening, and I’m aware that as we’re sitting on the couch, I’m starting to feel something, and I, I just start noticing that while I’m talking to her, I’m like, and starting to breathe, and I turn to her, she didn’t have any children, and I was like, I think I might be going into labor and she was like, Oh my gosh, what do I do?

And I was like, it’s okay. Just don’t leave. Cause I was waiting for Joe to get off the subway. He was coming home from the financial district and, you know no cell phone reception while he’s underground. It could take an hour to get home. So I was like, if you wouldn’t mind just staying with me.

Until he gets here. And then if you could please return these library books, that would be great. 

So, I called Joe. He’s like, oh, I was going to run some errands. I said, nope, just come home. And he’s like, okay, it’s go time. So, he comes home, and my friend leaves, and labor starts. And I am immediately, like, really irritated at my toddler.

I’m just like, she can sense that something is up and she is on me. 

She’s like clinging and I was like, no, this will not work. So we had a backup plan and I called a dear friend and I was like, I’m in labor. Can you please come get Eleanor? And she’s like, yep, I’ll be right there. So Eleanor stayed the night at a friend’s house.

I called my midwife and I said, hey, and she had like just gotten back to her house because we lived so far apart. And I was like, uh, I’m in labor. She’s like, no way. Okay, well, I’ll start headed your way. So Joe fills, he gets the birth tub filling up and I’m like, I’m gonna have this water birth. I call my best friend in New York City.

She was a doula. Oh prior to this I have to say was my first time attending a birth that wasn’t my own. 

As a photographer I had friends who were having babies and I asked a friend who was having a second baby, Could I photograph your birth? Is that something you’d be interested in? And she was like, absolutely.

So I attended this birth and my best friend was serving as her doula. And I was the photographer and she had this beautiful birth center birth. And I, that’s where I got the call where I was like, I need to always be doing this. And while I was pregnant with my second daughter, I attended some other births, including a hospital birth in New York City that like re cemented my idea that I was not going to have a baby in the hospital in New York City unless there was a medical reason to do so. 

That triage system felt like you were on a subway platform. it was noisy. It was messy. It was like brash, sorry, dad, you got to sit out here. We’re taking mom back. And it was, I was like, absolutely not.

So that friend who was also a doula at the time That was our plan to just have my husband, myself, the midwife, and my friend. So I call her and I say, Hey, I’m, I’m going to have this baby. You better get over here if you want to see it. And we’re just sort of laboring and the midwife comes over. I was playing my birth playlist.

I always love to have a specific playlist for each labor. I find the lyrics to be interesting, like what I choose for each one. So I’m, I’m laboring in my daughter’s bedroom in our little tiny apartment. And I tell the midwife when she comes, I’m like, maybe I called you too early. Like, I don’t know. Because I felt so good. And she’s like, it’s all right. You’re laboring. I can see that you’re laboring. Just, you know, she’s like, I’m going to go park my car. Cause she just put her hazards on and came up to check on me. So she’s going to find a parking spot. I decided to get in my regular bathtub and my friend comes over.

while the midwife is parking her car and I’m just like listening to the music play and I’m in my nice deep bathtub and all of a sudden I’m, I’m, I’m just like really focused. I think with my second daughter is where I really tuned into this idea of like ocean waves and like Diving down, down, down into the calmest part of the ocean as the wave would crest.

So I had this experience as a child swimming in the ocean and I was aware of like, sometimes when the water gets really choppy, you have to dive down in order to find a quiet place. So I was really tuning into that. And as the swells would come, I would just mentally go way far down and I would kind of visualize and I think that was also helpful like visualizing a downward movement because I’m also, inviting my pelvic floor to relax.

And At some point I’m like, whoa, I kind of felt like pushing at the end of that. And I tell this to my friend who’s holding my hand and she’s like, well, okay. And then the midwife comes back and, and B tells the midwife, Hey, Whitney says she feels a little bit like she might want to push and my midwife was like. I don’t know, because I was so calm, like I looked barely in labor, and she’s like, I don’t know, I’d be surprised if that were the case, and I’m just like, I’m just happy, no one’s rushing me, the lights are out, everyone’s sitting in this teeny tiny bathroom, while I labor. 

And Dust in the Wind is playing, and I’m thinking of these lyrics, it’s like, Don’t hang on, nothing lasts forever but the earth and sky.

And I’m just like, letting it come and go, and I’m totally at peace. And at some point, I look up at my midwife and I say, I don’t want to be here anymore, in this tub. And I was like, I don’t know where I want to be, but I don’t want to be here. And she’s like, okay, we’ll just stand up and you’ll find where you want to be. And this, I stand up and my husband’s helping me up and my water breaks just like, gosh, and you can hear it. Like splashing into the water and immediately her head is right there and I’m shocked because I’m like there is no Way, it’s time to push this baby out. Like I have not hit the milestone of I want to die Please kill me, 

like I was shocked I was like, I cannot believe I’m feeling like but but at the same time it’s all happening, you know Kind of quickly so I started to stand up My water breaks, I grab a hold of my husband, like I’m hanging from his neck and he’s like stabilizing himself against the wall because I’m involuntarily, I’m just pushing and my legs are like coming up off the floor of the tub, 

and I’m pushing and I’m kind of surprised.

I’m like, wow, I’m pushing. And I think it was just one push. I feel this burning. Maybe it was a two pushes. Not really sure. My friend is like pouring water down my back and it feels so good. Just like helping to ease that burning and Then the burning stops and I was like, Oh no, did she go back in? And they’re like, no, her head is out.

And this was so bizarre to me because my first child was born all in one fell swoop. So I’m standing there with a baby’s head, like. Hanging out of my body 

and I go oh, no, you mean I have to like still deliver the shoulders And everyone goes it’s okay that you’re the shoulders will be fine. You’ve got this and so I would just wait for the next contraction and I push out her shoulders and her the whole rest of her body and There she is like just perfect and I am like I’m bowled over.

I cannot believe they, you know, my midwife, turns out my midwife was pretty nervous because she’s like, Oh my gosh, porcelain tub, really slippery baby. That was coming really fast, but I didn’t know she was nervous. She told me later, she’s like, Ooh, I do not like to deliver a baby when someone’s standing over like. You know this slippery bathroom situation, but she just guides her up between my legs I bring her to my chest and everyone helps me sit down and there I am in the bathtub And I just look at her like huge plump cheeks and she’s naked And I’m naked. I’m only wearing my glasses. And I look down at her and I’m like, “Hello, it’s you. You’re here.” And I, and I just look around at everyone in the bathroom. I’m like, I can’t believe we just did that. It was four hours from the first contraction to her delivery. And I was like, I cannot believe that birth could be that calm and that beautiful.. 

[01:27:24] Kiona: I am just so, so, so happy to hear that you had such a calm, yet extremely powerful redemption birth.

It is… A good thing you called your midwife when you did. And, I was also going to say, pretty ballsy of her to put her hazards on to come check on you.

Just to check, because what if her car was there for longer than that time it was. But, also good that she did, because, I don’t know, everything worked out. 

Everything lined up. And, yeah, that’s amazing. I think thats beautiful. 

[01:27:58] Whitney: I call it my dreamiest birth. I hold no qualms about saying I have a favorite birth, and it was that one, and it was healing, and it was everything I needed. And just like, the peacefulness of it, Also, just that level of care and normalcy around giving birth, I opted to get one stitch to repair, because I thought I’m probably going to be chasing after this toddler.

So I’d rather just get a little stitch to my perineum, but I did not have the emotional trauma, the physical trauma. I felt so held and cared for as compared to the first birth. never got to use that birthing tub that was just sitting there all full waiting for me. but everyone like my midwife and my best friend like cleaned up and my best friend cooked us a meal.

And we laid in our bed eating pasta and looking at our baby who was nursing happily and just being like, And then they went, they left and we were like tucked into bed by 1030, just the three of us. And it was so beautiful. And it, I knew then what birth could be and it, it was healing and powerful and also incredibly normal.

Yeah. mmm, did anything go through your mind at that point, immediately postpartum, about what your mother was saying about birth? Did it pop up and say, oh, this is so different? I did not really think of my mother really at all in that. By that point, uh, she had really, Declined in her own mental health and like ability to function So we had a strained Relationship I was living in New York City she was living in Wisconsin with some random dude and We were just trying to navigate like she wanted to be involved in my children’s lives But I was holding a firm boundary of protection around myself and my family.

And she met my daughter once. She met Eleanor on Skype when I was very pregnant with Wren. And I know that my mother loved my children, and I know that she loved me, but she was never well enough to be able to be present, and as hard and complicating. It was a very complicated decision that I made to not allow her to come. but I just knew that I had to protect my children. And so, we made plans for her to meet both girls that we were, she wanted to come out and visit us in New York City. And I just said, no mom, we just, we just can’t do that. But we’ll come see you. And so we had plans to see her in the spring and to bring the girls.

[01:30:58] Kiona: yeah 

[01:31:00] Whitney: into maybe the hardest part. So, I had a really different postpartum experience with Wren because I had this best friend and I told everyone to look out for me. I said I had this terrible postpartum depression before and please keep an eye on me. So I, I asked for support. I had this healing birth. Breastfeeding went better.

But, Wren was, Oh, bless her soul, she had colic. She cried, and she puked, and she cried, and all that girl did was scream as a baby. And it’s really unfortunate that people dont take colic.

seriously. A lot of doctors are just very dismissive. They’ll grow out of it. They only seem to care that the baby is gaining weight, which she was gaining weight.

But when I would put her to my breast, she arched her back and it was so, it was so hard to feel like she wants to nurse. Like nursing was her way of getting comfort and of course I’m gonna feed her and she gets hungry, but It was like I could tell that she was in pain. And we put her on some reflux medicine, and we had her sleeping on a wedge, and we did everything we could to, like, help her. But she just vomited and that was the sound of her babyhood was wailing and then the sound of spit up Splashing on the hardwood floor. And so at about six weeks I had my grandmother come out because I said look She left when Eleanor was three days postpartum and I was like we’re gonna do this differently this time I want you to come when she’s six weeks old when the Exhaustion is at its peak. She was able to validate like, Whoa, this girl just screams. So it was nice to have another adult in the household. Honestly, I wore earplugs and I still recommend that to people with sound sensitivity. my husband would come home from work and I would just hand him this screaming baby and I would go for a walk by myself because we were just trapped in this little tiny apartment.

So, I did not suffer like the same sort of postpartum depression that I did the first time, but I had a really challenging baby. And we were just starting to get our feet underneath us that spring when I received news that my mom had died by suicide. And I was 25 years old and I had a two year old and a three month old. And that was like just the worst news. It really… devastated. it took, it took my legs out from underneath me. and it really, I feel robbed. I feel robbed of a lot of things. But part of that is the experience that I was set up to have with my second baby that I had worked so hard for. Suddenly it was overshadowed by this incredible grief. And, We took my children to Wisconsin and I had to, like, clean out the motel room where she had been staying.

And it was incredibly traumatic, to, come face to face with the years of addiction and decline and all the systems that I felt let us down. And, we took her ashes back to California. We cobbled together the best funeral that we could, but I was 25 years old. Like, what the heck did I know about funeral rituals?

And It was all incredibly complicated and through it all I had this, this crying babe who needed me and I was crying and I remember putting her to my breast and feeling so afraid that I was gonna transfer some sort of brokenness to her. Through my breast milk. I was afraid that the tears that fell on her were going to harm her. We went back to New York City and my husband had already been accepted to grad school. So we knew we were going to be moving. So when I tell you we had a really shitty year, It was like we had this beautiful birth And then Eleanor had to go into the hospital for RSV when Wren was like a week old. And then my mom died and then we moved to a new town and that all happened within six months.

It was like, it was too much. It’s too much for anyone. 

[01:36:01] Kiona: Yeah. 

[01:36:02] Whitney: Yeah so we, we took our little babies and my broken little self and we moved to Ithaca, New York, and he started grad school and I put on a brave face for a little while. and then at some point in the fall or winter of that year, it just hit, like I moved out of survival mode and, I just fell into a crushing depression. I had non stop nightmares. I could not eat. I had no appetite. I lost a lot of weight. It got really dark and it got really scary. And I finally had called, I had always been really opposed to taking any sort of medication because part of my narrative watching a parent grow up with substance use disorder was like I did not ever want to rely on any kind of substance to, to change my mood or to help me.

And so I was really bought into this idea that I’m going to be strong enough and I’m different than her and I’m not going to need this. And, at some point during my darkest time, I reached back out to a therapist I had worked with in New York City, and he was able to put the language to it.

He said, “the depression you’re experiencing is changing you. The medicine that’s available will not change you. It will just put a floor on the suffering”. He’s like, “you are falling down a deep hole, and we want to be able to put a floor underneath your suffering”. So I started an SSRI. And I found a good therapist, and I’m a huge proponent of, looking around.

I met with a couple therapists that were not the right fit, people who were just honestly out of their depth, And, and it took me a while to find the right person, and that’s a therapist I continue to work with today,ten years later. and that started… Yeah, just a really beautiful, powerful journey of healing. As I was a young mother myself, I was also working on healing my mother wound. And so many of the things I was experiencing raising my daughters was putting me in direct contact with what I didn’t receive as a child and being able to re parent myself. And it’s, it’s heavy, but it’s literally been the work of my whole life.

And I’m so proud to be the woman and the mother that I am today.

[01:38:49] Kiona: You should be. You really should be. I am hearing your story, and… I am in awe and I, Whitney, I barely know you, but I am so proud of you. I am so proud of you for doing exactly what you needed to do to get to where you are today. You asked for support based on your experience from your first postpartum.

That is number one. The fact that you knew and had the realization that I don’t want that to happen again. Let me just set a little bit of a foundation to make sure that it doesn’t. And I would even say that you setting that foundation of having that support for your second postpartum probably played a big role in your ability to push forward as far as you did before you crashed. Because hearing all of that in your postpartum with experiencing the loss of your mom, after fighting this battle with figuring out how much you want her to be involved in the lives of your babies, and then having that robbed from you, and then Going and having to deal with the aftermath of her decision in a really hard way at just 25 years old.

Needing to do all the things, all of the cleaning up, all of the, also all of the emotional giving of being able to put on a funeral. With you being so freshly postpartum. I will say this time and time again, Whitney, you are a badass. You really are. Like, that is so, that is something only a strong person could do.

That is something only a strong woman could do, a strong person could do, a strong mother could do, a strong wife could do. You are amazing. You are 

truly, truly amazing. And I… I commend you for all of your hard work, and I’m here sitting across the screen from you, and I see, like, as I look at your face, I see the emotional turmoil this put you through, but I also see who you are today, and the strength that you carry with you from going through this, and I’m happy and honored to be able to talk to you about it, and I’m happy you shared it with me.

[01:41:22] Whitney: Thank you so much. I, it means a lot to me. I think sometimes we just, we go through our lives. we have experiences and we don’t often have the container to sit and reflect. And so this is such a powerful gift that you’re giving me to witness my story, the fact that you want to know. And it gives me the opportunity to, tell the whole of it. And to spend that time to say, to just witness to myself, like I am embodied in who I am today, and it feels so damn good to have healed that much.

And yeah, that’s a big theme throughout my story is that it took me years to develop the kind of self compassion that I have now. And it’s a nice and important mental exercise to go back and visit past memories with the kind of compassion I have now.

And to sort of picture myself holding that young mother who was holding that baby in the middle of the night and to be able to tell her the things that I know now, Sweetheart, you are not doing anything wrong. This is really hard. This is hard because you just don’t have enough of what you need. and you’re doing the best you can. it’s, it’s such a powerful thing to revisit former versions of ourselves and to offer ourselves that radical compassion.

[01:42:52] Kiona: Yes. Yes, I agree 100%, 100%. And this isn’t the end of your story. You have another birth that we’re going to be talking about today. And all of this that you just shared with us, both your first and second birth and postpartum experiences lead into the decisions that you made when falling pregnant and giving birth to Willow.

So let’s talk Willow. 

[01:43:20] Whitney: Yes. Willow. the baby of the family. there are four years between Wren and Willow, which was much better for me. I’m a big believer there’s no right way to Give birth. There’s no right timing. There’s but you know what I know about myself is having two babies was rough. And having my kids in kindergarten and preschool when I had that last baby was a whole different ballgame and I loved it.

So I loved giving myself permission to heal, to take time, to really think about, to even sit with complicated emotions and think about, is this what I want? To be uncertain and to just like, You know, be in that process. I gave myself a lot more time and patience with Willow. So I don’t honestly remember much , we just kind of decided to have a baby.

I don’t know, may have taken a couple of months. It definitely was something that we knew we wanted to do. We approached it with some trepidation for sure, because we were like, well the last time we had a baby the whole damn world fell apart.

[01:44:24] Kiona: Mm-Hmm.

[01:44:26] Whitney: But also there had been more time for healing and growth. We were living in Seattle.

Joe had, taken a job with Amazon after graduating from grad school. So we were a little more settled. We had a yard this cute little house that we rented and our girls were growing up and we were like let’s have another baby and I felt a lot more confident, I knew I was gonna have a home birth with a midwife and At this time, I was already photographing birth, so I had seen some midwives, and, I just chose a practice that I liked, and it was very non complicated.

I don’t even remember much about her pregnancy, I had two other kids, and I just remember feeling like it’s possible this might be our last baby, so I feel like I soaked it in more, yeah, a big theme of the pregnancy was just continuing on with my own healing, I was in therapy twice a week, virtually with my therapist, and so it was the first time that I was able to approach the birth and talk with my therapist about like, hey, I tend to not do so well in the postpartum period, and so we were able to make a plan, there was that continuity of care already established, and so I just went into it feeling like such a different person. yeah, not really anything that I can think of in terms of complications or

[01:45:49] Kiona: no varicos viens? 

[01:45:50] Whitney: No, thank goodness! I was like, so sure. I was like, it’s gonna happen again, it’s gonna be worse, but nothing. So, that was really great. I got big. I got real big. I don’t know. For me, third baby was like, oof.

Uh, yeah, I gained a lot of weight. Oh, numbness. That was my big complaint with her. 

I had a lot of swelling, nothing that my providers were concerned about, but I just, I could not feel my fingers. Like they were so numb and tingly and it drove me crazy. And I remember my midwife just being like, it’s gonna go away, it’s gonna go away, you just have to have this baby, and, get rid of this extra fluid.

And, oh, I tried everything. I was like, I need to hydrate more so I don’t hang on to so much. But I was just puffy. I was just puffy and pregnant.

[01:46:40] Kiona: Puffy and pregnant. I love that. And I’m pretty sure many people can relate to that.

 Well, I’m glad to hear that you didn’t have the, the vulva varicosities or any varicose veins anymore. And I’m happy to hear that you already established that continuity of care and continue to see your therapist and, already had a little bit of a feel of what the midwives in the area were doing and who to connect with.

Kind of had that foundation to just step onto when you found out you were pregnant, you’re like, all right, I know what steps I’m taking and we’re gonna go forward with that. so let’s go ahead and then dive straight into her birth. what was her birth like and at what point did you realize you were in labor and all that good stuff?

[01:47:20] Whitney: okay, so her birth. I think you might know that the springtime in Seattle is so gorgeous and I like booked myself a pedicure for her due date, or maybe it was the day after her due date I’m a big fan of like booking some kind of self care for the day after the due date So it’s like hey if you haven’t had a baby yet go get a pedicure. So I got this pedicure and I met I’m going to talk a good friend, and we looked at the cherry blossoms, at the UW campus, and we walked around, and again, I am puffy and pregnant, but she’s just with me, commiserating, yeah, I’m still pregnant, yeah, I’m massive, let’s, do some walking, and see some pretty flowers, cause I’m about to, like, You know, be gone for a while once I have this baby.

so I come home and my husband’s making dinner and my grandmother’s there. She doesn’t have to sleep on the futon anymore because we have a little more space in this house. Yeah. so I love that she was like. a part of all of these births. so she, they’re like making dinner. I am highly irritated.

I’m just like, oh, everything is bothering me and I cannot figure out why, but I’m sitting at this dinner table being like, I hate this food. I hate every noise that my kids are making. Oh, I’m just like beyond pissed, like out of nowhere. So I just kinda, I don’t really eat much, and I just excuse myself to the bedroom, and I go lay down, and I’m watching Grey’s Anatomy, cause reruns of Grey’s Anatomy is like my safety blanket.

I can hear my husband in the next room putting the kids to bed, and I feel the first. Just like wave kind of similar to with Eleanor I feel this like engagement in my pelvis and I I have to say with subsequent pregnancies. I had a lot more warm up contractions a lot more Braxton Hicks So this time when I’m laying there and I feel something and I’m like, ah that feels different and I text Jov From the next room and I say, hey, get those kids to bed because I think, might be starting into labor.

And my midwife from New York City had said, when you have another baby, you need to tell your midwives to not mess around. they need to get there. You are going to have fast labors, eight hours with an OP baby, first time around, four hours. So she was like, do not, she’s like, you need to reiterate to them.

She’s like, I’ll put it in your chart, but you have to say, That your midwife says they need to come fast. So I text Joe, I’m like, Hey, I think I might be starting labor. the kids go down to sleep. Again, we thought that Eleanor might want to watch this birth. So, that’s, in my mind. She says she wants to.

Wren says she wants nothing to do with it. So, I’m thinking, well, maybe she’ll probably sleep through it. But in case she doesn’t, we have, a plan for someone that’s going to take her. Because she’s absolutely not. I do not want to see

this.Okay, so I’m laying there and then I’m like, okay, I’m having some contractions.

So I go ahead and call the on call number for the midwives and it’s so funny how in your mind you think that you love all your midwives or maybe you don’t have a favorite and you don’t really know until you’re in labor like who you’re hoping will pick up the phone. 

[01:50:36] Kiona: Right. 

[01:50:38] Whitney: But I remember feeling a twinge of disappointment that I was like, oh her and what’s funny is like during my pregnancy I would have said she was my favorite one, but sometimes when you go into labor, you just like You feel like you need something different.

So anyway, I let her know. I was like, Hey, contractions are starting. and she’s like, okay, we’ll start to make our way over there. So, I decide I’m going to have this baby in this birth pool. So I tell my team, my husband and my grandma, to start filling up this pool. And, I don’t even bother getting into my little tub, because I know what happened last time, and I’m not going to let that happen again. So, I’m just like putzing around, I like light a candle, and I start my playlist, and I’m all excited, I’m like, gonna have a baby, so exciting. And, I am in the bathroom, and there’s a little blood dripping on the floor. And, I get freaked out. I’ve been around quite a few births at this point and I’ve had some myself.

I’ve never experienced this. So there’s like just little drops of blood hitting the floor. So I call the midwife again and I’m like, Hey, so I’m still contracting like every, five, four minutes, and they feel manageable, but I’m bleeding. There’s like little drops of blood. And they’re like, okay, well, we’re, we’re, we’re close.

And I’m like, okay. So, turns out, I was just dripping blood because my cervix was changing so quickly. But I wasn’t, I, I didn’t know that at the time. 

so they arrive and my people are filling up the birth tub and then I get the terrible news that we have run out of hot water. And I’m like, oh hell no, no, no, no.

And so my grandma is boiling water on the stove, like the good old days. And I tell my husband, you need to go tell the neighbors to start boiling water on their stove. I need all the water right now. So my husband, we were good friends with our neighbors and they were totally freaked out.

They’re like, she’s having the baby right now, but they like fill up all their pots with water and he’s like running back and forth, like carrying water

[01:52:44] Kiona: You have such good neighbors. 

[01:52:45] Whitney: We were really good friends. So, It just felt very like pioneer old world, like everyone’s like boil the water, someone’s having a baby . So. Midwives come and I tell they want to check me and I didn’t really want to be checked But I was like, okay fine because they’re like we just want to get an idea of where you are And I was like, that’s fine, but I don’t want to know where I am. So I lay down on my bed They do a cervical exam. She goes into the next room.

I can still hear her. She calls the other midwife and she’s she’s a seven with a bulging bag of water And I was like, well, I didn’t really want to know that because I didn’t you know I just did not want to have any of that mental game. now I know like, okay Yeah, it’s definitely happening. It’s getting close. And I’m still pissed. I feel like through this whole labor, I am angry. I am like, what the hell is happening? And why is it happening so fast? And why can’t I get my like, calm, good feeling that I had with my second labor? Like, when am I gonna find that sense of peace? And I’m like, probably when I get in this tub.

That’s when I’m gonna feel it. So I’m sitting on this like, chair next to the birth pool, which is set up in our living room. And I’m just sitting there and I am just breathing. And I’m like, Like my eyes are boring lasers into this tub because I’m so focused on the relief I’m gonna get when I get into this tub and the I’m mad that they won’t let me in I’m like, it’s warm enough and they’re like, no, we cannot have you get into a tub Your baby could you know get cold or sick you it really has to be so I’m like, okay fine. So I’m just sitting there and then the midwives want to talk to me about like so I hear you’re a birth Photographer and I was like, can we talk about work another time?

I do not want to talk about work right now. So they’re kind of like exchanging glances with each other, and I, and then they bring up another topic. They’re like, so if we’re not able to get this birth tub full, is there somewhere else you would like to have your baby? And I have seen this show before with other women, and I’m like, no.

I’m not having it. I’m not doing it. So I look at them and I say, I’m either having this baby in this tub or right here on the floor next to this tub. That’s it, but it’s going to be in the tub. So I’m like, keep boiling water. 

[01:55:08] Kiona: Right. 

[01:55:08] Whitney: Like, why has everyone given up on boiling water? Um, so then the midwife assistant comes. more people are coming for the birth team. And I’m just like, I’m just irritable. I’m sweating. I’m starting to feel nauseous with the surges. Thankfully, I never did vomit with any of my… births, but I’m aware that like, Oh, man, this is getting miserable. And I’m like, Oh my gosh, I just really want to get in this tub.

And so then they’re like, they try again, and they’re like, What if you just go lay down in your bed? And I’m like, I know what you’re trying to do. You’re trying to get me to go to my room so I’ll have this baby on my bed and I don’t want to. And so finally I’m like, fine. I’ll go to my room. And I like walk to my room. And, you know the bedrooms in Seattle, it’s like teeny tiny. We’ve got a little queen size bed shoved in here. So I’m standing next to my side of the bed. Midwife is like listening to the baby’s heartbeat. I’m having a contraction and then other midwives are like on the other side of the bed. And my husband’s at the foot of the bed and grandma is still boiling water in the kitchen.

And so I’m like, I love to stand, I’m standing on my feet, I’m swaying, and I’m getting rocked by these contractions. And, one of my midwives, I’m so glad she did this for me. She looked at me, and she said, it’s okay to let go. And she gave me that permission to just like, freak the fuck out and so I had this one contraction where I kind of like laid on the bed They were like trying to get me to lay on the bed to see if that but I knew that was not gonna work for me, so I’m like half on the bed and I’m just like roaring and Wailing and just like really letting myself go like losing my composure and I get back up on my two feet water breaks baby is crowning like just like the last time so The midwife that’s behind me that she’s gonna be the midwife delivering she calls out water. Lots of water because it like splashes up onto the wall.

It like floods everything underneath my bed. Like just so much water and then her head is right there. So I’m pushing and this whole time I’m pissed. I’m like This is too fast. It’s too fast. And so, I push and I am also thinking to myself, This is the biggest baby I’ve ever had. Cause I’m like, I feel like this baby is ripping me. And these are the thoughts that are going through my head as I’m like, bearing down. And I, I’m pretty sure her head comes out and they call out, nuchal cord, too tight to release like the midwife tries to release it and in my mind. I start to panic a little and I’m like, oh god She’s getting stuck. And so I just like push again and she comes out and she had her little fist up by her cheek, which is why it hurt so bad, but it’s over quickly and They hand me this precious little willow and I’m just still like Not really okay with the fact that I just had a baby in three hours. And… I’m shocked, and they like, help me onto the bed, and I’m just like, I’m just like, Whoo, okay, hi, you’re here, okay, so nice, and 

[01:58:50] Kiona: Right. Yeah 

[01:58:51] Whitney: yeah, it, yeah, so that was her like, whirlwind birth, and I will stand by the statement. I loved the episode where the lady was talking about being strapped naked to a roller coaster, because there is such a thing as too fast.

[01:59:06] Kiona: Yeah, that was episode 35 with Macy Blakemore. Yeah.

[01:59:09] Whitney: That feeling of like when your mind can’t, you, you don’t have enough time to like catch up to what your body is doing. You can’t really integrate what’s happening. In my previous labors, I had this sense that like I would, I would experience contractions, and then I would get on board with them, and I would be like, okay, this is where we are, and then we would level up, and it’d be like, okay, now we’ve unlocked a new level of intensity.

With this last labor, I just felt like I was chasing behind this runaway labor, and I was like, wait, wait, wait, I’m not ready, I don’t have my stuff together.

[01:59:44] Kiona: Right. Yeah. Oh, gosh, that is intense. you had a precipitous labor, which is incredibly intense. You are speaking the truths of not being able to ground yourself and catch up and realizing that You know, it’s, it’s kind of the opposite of your first experience where you did all the research, you did all the things, and then as labor was going, you were just kind of waiting for them to say, okay, you can do it now. You can push now. 

And then in this labor, You’re like, I don’t want to push yet. I don’t want to do this yet. I want the birth tub. I want that piece that I received in my second labor. And I also find it super interesting that in both your first labor and your third, you let go. you had that moment of letting go in your first experience.

You stated it as giving up. And in this labor your midwife was like, you can let go. And you did. You were just like, ah, fuck. You know, like 

[02:00:53] Whitney: exactly. And I remember, it’s actually, as you’re re describing it, I remember that it’s when we were in the bedroom, I verbalized to my midwives, I said, I feel my body starting to push, and I’m not ready.

[02:01:06] Kiona: Mm.

[02:01:07] Whitney: I was like, this is happening, and I’m not ready. And they were like, we know, it’s okay. And they could see me struggling, and I think we all see this when we attend births, that sometimes when it is fast and furious, there’s that tug of war between oh shit, this is happening so fast, and I’m, and, and so, I love talking about surrender, because sometimes, you’re just along for the ride, and feeling that you can, and oftentimes must, Let go of any sense of control is what finally gets you to the very end.

[02:01:49] Kiona: Yeah. 100%. I agree with that 100%. And that’s gonna be hard for some people to hear, especially if they’re pregnant with their first baby while listening to this, because having those fears of the unexpected or the things that you cannot control. 

It’s really heavy and you’re speaking this as a third time parent, saying, uh, surrender was a key point in this one. all of them, actually. So as a mom of three myself, I 100 percent agree because, There’s a time when, primal instincts just have to take over and you just gotta let go.

You gotta be strapped naked to the rollercoaster, you know?

[02:02:30] Whitney: Yeah,

[02:02:30] Kiona: yeah.

[02:02:32] Whitney: I love that as like an ending container for the conversation is just, I feel like through all these stories and all the things that I’ve shared, I came into the world as a very scared little girl who thought that she could save her mother by being really super good and being a perfectionist and being in control of all of so many things.

And over the years it’s been a continual practice to learn and accept and feel okay with the idea that like, ooh, there’s so much we don’t control and we deserve to be held and witnessed and supported while we go through the wild ride of life. And it’s the same with birth. you don’t know how it’s gonna go, but can you feel safely held enough that you can meet that uncertainty with an innate sense of trust that, you’re gonna be held through this.

You’re going to be okay. 

[02:03:45] Kiona: Yes. And I was gonna mention earlier the fact that your midwives were calm, or at least sounded calm and supportive throughout your entire quick, precipitous birth, you knew that when you turned around and saw that your midwives were there, that you were safe and supported in that.

And even though you really didn’t want to freaking have your baby right then and there, they were like, I know. I know, like I feel, I, I know, like I know exactly what feeling you’re talking about, but you gotta let go.

[02:04:20] Whitney: But here we are. 

[02:04:21] Kiona: But here we are, I really love that. I love that for you. And I. Uh, all three of your stories, this is why I love interviewing people that have multiple stories is because every single fucking birth is different.

It is so different and you are the same individual that is carrying a child that is birthing that child. But at the same time, you’re still so different as a person each time. Like I would even say like your biology is different every time. The growth that you have to go through and just the, the growth you experience from every single birth is insane.

And the in between, the perinatal time.

[02:05:10] Whitney: It’s such an expansive experience, and I feel like through my pregnancies and deliveries , and parenting, my grief and my healing, like I have learned that we have a larger capacity for Just experiencing a humongous range of emotions and ways of being that we don’t always know we’re capable of until life shows us.

You know, through, and, and pregnancy and childbirth is absolutely one of those transformative experiences that shows you, you’re a human being and you are always growing and becoming,

[02:05:53] Kiona: 100%, Whitney. Oh, gosh. We could talk about this forever, especially as two birth workers, you know, just like, Oh, just like the realness and the rawness that comes with all of it that comes with conception, pregnancy, labor, birth, parenting. I wish that, there were more. Well, maybe I’m not looking for them, but resources out there for the rawness of parenting, and I mentioned this in Taylor Montgomery’s episode ,episode 36, near the end, I have a friend that is a mom of two that just talks about how becoming a parent just fucks you up. It just, it just fucks you up and it’s just this, and it’s not necessarily like, ah, man, this is horrible, but it’s like, it literally changes you completely as a person.

[02:06:42] Whitney: It breaks you down to the very bottom.

[02:06:45] Kiona: Yes. It like literally strips you of all that you have, but that is literally coexistent with the fact of how much you are willing to give and how much that you have to give and sacrifice because of the love that you have for this child, at least that’s how it was for me . 

[02:07:01] Whitney: I mean, same. Im definitely not going to sit here and say the parenting has been easy or graceful or predictable. I am a mess in the best way. 

[02:07:12] Kiona: Right. Right. I mean, and as a mom of three, like, I’m telling my sisters, what I’m going through with my 10 year old right now, like the conversations we have, cause we, my, my 10 year old is like one of my bestest of friends. And we, with, of course, walking that fine line of like, well, I’m your mom, you know, um, and communicating about all the things.

And my sister just, I, we just celebrated my niece’s first birthday and she’s like, Kiona, you’re scaring me. I am so scared. I am not ready for this kind of thing. And I was like, neither am I, but here I am.

[02:07:44] Whitney: Yeah, we’re all just doing it. 

[02:07:45] Kiona: we’re all just doing it. And as much as, some people would like to say that, Oh, I’m an expert in parenting. maybe your kids, and maybe not. Maybe you just have to fake it till you make it. I don’t know. Ha ha

[02:07:56] Whitney: think the most beautiful gift, one of the most beautiful gifts we can give to our children well this is amazing because my daughter just was able to verbalize this to me the other day. after all those years I told you where I worried that I was going to hurt them, that I wasn’t going to be like a good enough mom, that I, what if I pass down the generational trauma, that what if I can’t hold it back, and shield them.

My oldest daughter said the other day that she was talking with a friend at school and her friend was saying something about how, She doesn’t feel comfortable like crying at home or having emotions that her family is just very Closed off. And my daughter said, oh my gosh. My home is where I feel the most comfortable letting go and I can always like feel all of my emotions and my family Make space for that.

There is nothing like having a 13 year old tell you to your face That you have created an emotionally safe environment for them. There’s nothing like that. Like that was so healing and my husband and I were laying in bed that night and we were like, oh my gosh We did that. 

She is able to verbalize to us that she feels safe, that her emotional needs are met. And, and we, I just think that’s one of the greatest gifts we can give to our children is to let them see us be human, 

and let them see us not having all the answers, and practicing compassion, forgiveness, repair,

and just letting them know, just like my midwives did, it’s okay to fall apart, we’re here. 

[02:09:42] Kiona: Yeah. 

[02:09:42] Whitney: You’re safe.

[02:09:44] Kiona: Yeah. 

[02:09:45] Whitney: it’s such a gift for us as parents and for them.

[02:09:48] Kiona: I agree. I agree. And I feel like, That’s the only way to not pass down generational traumas is to be open about the fact that you as an adult and as a parent are still working on it yourself.

[02:10:01] Whitney: Mm-Hmm,

[02:10:02] Kiona: Uh, Well, Whitney, I, I, we have to end this episode at some point because,

[02:10:07] Whitney: know a mega episode. 

[02:10:08] Kiona: Yeah, I, I can go on forever. I’m so serious.

[02:10:12] Whitney: And I love having conversations like this. I love communicating and connecting and having community. Like you’re in Arkansas, and now I feel like you’re my homie, Absolutely.

[02:10:21] Kiona: Let me close off by asking just a few questions. Closing questions. 

[02:10:24] Whitney: Cool. Rapid fire. I, I won’t expand

[02:10:27] Kiona: Okay, rapid fire what is one piece of advice that you would give to all pregnant people as they prepare for labor birth and postpartum?

[02:10:34] Whitney: Get yourself a doula.

[02:10:36] Kiona: Get yourself a doula. Agreed. Next question. What is one resource that I can share with our listeners on your behalf?

mm. That’s a good one. And of course we will share your business for those that are in your area, 

[02:10:50] Whitney: yeah. In terms of resources and maybe I wanna like, refine my, along with get yourself a doula. I also wanna add that’s for the birth, for postpartum, uh, invest time in educating yourself around breastfeeding if that’s the way that you’re or any infant feeding, honestly, if you plan to feed your baby with your body.

Take that time prenatally to learn about that, and if you are at all able, start working prenatally with a private lactation practice, because that is going to set you up for such a better experience. We do not get good enough lactation support in the hospital, where most people are giving birth, and then you just get sent home, and everyone’s like, hey, hope this works out. there’s a really, there’s a gap there

[02:11:40] Kiona: A very large gap, yes. 

[02:11:42] Whitney: A large gap that happens in that first week after birth. So, when I’m working with my clients, I, I have advanced lactation training. I’m a lactation counselor. And I just see it, it goes so much better when I’m able to help them prenatally learn about breastfeeding, see them at the birth, check in with them three days later.

How’s baby feeding? What’s working? What’s not working? And already be like, I think you could benefit from an IBCLC. 

Let’s get you set up like that just works way better than waiting till you’re at the pediatrician and they’re like your baby’s not gaining weight

[02:12:18] Kiona: Right, right. Yeah. And I also love that you said you meet with them three days postpartum because that tends to be around the time when , if they are feeding from their body, That’s when milk tends to come in, so it’s navigating those initial moments of, Oh my God, my letdown is really heavy or something like that. So

[02:12:36] Whitney: Yeah, three to five days, just like keeping that conversation, I think that’s a disservice. We could talk a lot about the disservices in the birthing industry, but the disservice that happens post birth and there’s just like a black hole of care. 

And, and that is one way that doulos can help support is that critical postpartum period in the first week where people need to be seen in person.

They need hands on help. They need someone checking in on their mental state. They need someone who can pick up the phone in the middle of the night when they’re like, can you please FaceTime me because I don’t think she’s latching. 

that is critical care. 

[02:13:15] Kiona: Very, very very critical. Yes, I love it. I love it. now the final question I have for you is if you could describe your births with one word, what would it be? And you can do one word for each birth if you’d like.

[02:13:33] Whitney: Yeah, I will. What is the word for Eleanor’s birth? It’s like epic battle.

[02:13:42] Kiona: Hmm.

[02:13:43] Whitney: The second one would be dream and the third one would be too damn fast

[02:13:54] Kiona: ha ha. Oh, gosh. Oh my gosh, Whitney. Thank you so much. I really, truly appreciate you sharing your stories with me.

I want to reiterate again that you are such a badass person. You’re a badass mom. You’re a badass birth support person. You’re just badass and I love your badassery.

[02:14:13] Whitney: Thank you so much for having me It was such a treat to like get to know you and have this conversation. You can call me anytime. We are homies. 

[02:14:21] Kiona: Yes, awesome. I love it so much. I love it. Uh, thank you, thank you, thank you. 

[02:14:34] Kiona: I had such a great time interviewing Whitney for this episode. During this episode, I learned so much. When it came to Whitney’s story specifically, she mentioned in depth how the environment around her truly impacted how she handled the decisions around pregnancy and birth, as well as her postpartum. And it had a lot to do with the community and support that she had throughout each of her pregnancies and births. 

Whitney. Thank you so much for sharing your stories. Thank you for being vulnerable with us and for providing support services for the families around you, in your community.

And for those listening now, if you enjoyed this episode, leave a review. I would love to hear from you. And if you’re not already follow me on Instagram, @birthasweknowitpodcast podcast, so we can stay connected.

For next week’s episode I interviewed Tabitha Milian. Tabitha talks about the birth of her son, how she put intention behind her birth team and how they had to transfer to Seattle. Children’s. Immediately postpartum due to a low heart rate. So tune in next week to hear all the details on Tabitha’s story. 

Do you have a birth story or experience you would like to share on the podcast?

Fill out the Guest Request Form below to put in your inquiry! I would love to hear from you!

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Last updated on September 18, 2024