78-Mariela Guerra-3 Births-Cesareans-NICU-PMAD-Twins-Breast Cancer Diagnosis-ZacarÍas, Serafina & Magdalena

photo credit to featured image goes to April Pinto (https://www.aprilpintophotography.com/)  

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Description:

Mariela expected to have one child and be done. Little did she know that getting pregnant for a second time unexpectedly 9 years later would lead her to twins and a breast cancer diagnosis. Tune in to this episode to hear Mariela talk about her journey of discovering she was pregnant with twins, that she had breast cancer as well as discussing the importance of mental health. 

birthasweknowitpodcast.com/78 

Disclaimer: This podcast is intended for educational purposes only with no intention of giving or replacing any medical advice. I, Kiona Nessenbaum, am not a licensed medical professional. All advice that is given on the podcast is from the personal experience of the storytellers. All medical or health-related questions should be directed to your licensed provider.  

For another story about a twin birth for a second pregnancy tune into episode 64-Melissa Llarena-3 Vaginal Births-Twins-Gabriel, Noah & Nicholas.

Resources:

• Perinatal Support of Washington: https://perinatalsupport.org/ 
• Postpartum Support International: https://www.postpartum.net
• Breast Cancer During Pregnancy 
• Hope for Two: The Pregnant with Cancer Network 

 Definitions:

• Identical vs Fraternal Twins
• Ovary Removal 
• Pregnancy at Age 35 or Older/Advanced Maternal Age (AMA)
• Cold Capping 

Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode!

If you want to share your birth story or experience on the Birth As We Know It™️ Podcast, fill out this Guest Request Form. 

Support the podcast and become a part of the BAWKI™️ Community by becoming a Patron on the Birth As We Know It Patreon Page!

Want to be in on the fun conversations and part of an awesome community? Join the Private Facebook Group! 

Photo credit of first image goes to April Pinto (https://www.aprilpintophotography.com/)

Transcription of Episode 78:

Intro 0:08
Welcome to Birth As We Know It, a podcast that is dedicated to recognizing the many different ways that birth unfolds. I am your host, Kiona Nessenbaum. I have experienced birth as a doula, a student midwife, a birth assistant, and as a mother of three amazing children of my own. After attending over 140 births, I’ve realized that each birth experience is truly unique. So make sure you subscribe and join me as we are guided through many different birth experiences through the lens of the storyteller. Please be aware that some of these stories can be triggering to hear. So feel free to pause, take a breath, and come back and listen whenever you’re ready. With that said, let’s prep ourselves to dive deep and get detailed about what really happens in the birth space.

Disclaimer 1:06
As a reminder, this podcast is intended for educational purposes only and has no intention of giving or replacing any medical advice. All advice that is given on the podcast is from the personal experiences of the storytellers. All medical or health related questions should be directed to your licensed provider.

Kiona 1:26
Before we dive into this episode, I just want to say thank you so much for tuning in to the Birth As We Know It Podcast. I truly appreciate you tuning in and hearing all of these amazing stories right alongside me. If you want to become part of the awesome community, you can go to

birthasweknowitpodcast. com/community. It is a Facebook group as of now and it is totally free. And I would love to hear your input on episodes or just talking about birth and learning about everything alongside all of us. In today’s episode, we are going to be talking to Mariela and she shares her stories of her two pregnancies that led to three babies because one was a singleton and she also had a twin pregnancy. And the interesting fact is that during this twin pregnancy, she was diagnosed with breast cancer. So she talks about what it’s like to go through that journey of treatment and everything while pregnant and immediately postpartum. If this episode sounds interesting to you after you’re done listening to this one, I highly suggest that you check out episode 64 with Melissa, and she talks about her two experiences as well, her first birth being a singleton and her second one being twins. All right, let’s dive into this episode with Mariela. Hello everybody, and welcome back to the Birth As We Know It podcast today I am excited to be talking to Mariela Guerra Mariela is going to be sharing the birth of her son Zacarias, as well as her twin girls, Serafina and Magdalena. So welcome, Mariela. Thank you so much for coming on today.

Mariela 3:04
Hi. It’s nice to meet you.

Kiona 3:05
Yes, I am super, super interested in diving deep into your stories because, one, your children are far apart for a reason. So Zacarias, you said, is 14 years old. And your twin girls are five.

Mariela 3:22
Yes.

Kiona 3:22
And in your guest request form, you had said that your first experience was what made you decide you were one and done.

Mariela 3:31
Oh, yeah. He was born with colic. That right there. Like.

Kiona 3:35
Okay.

Mariela 3:36
It’s a big one.

Kiona 3:37
Mm hmm.

Mariela 3:38
I was really traumatized.

Kiona 3:41
with that said, what we’re going to do is we’re going to dive into the very beginning. And let’s talk about your conception was Zacarias. What was that like for you?

Mariela 3:50
Oh, goodness. It was unplanned. we had just gotten married. So we were like maybe a year and a half into marriage. You know, newlyweds having fun, early twenties,super relaxed. And I had broken my ankle and we didn’t have a medical insurance. So, I was just paying for birth control out of pocket. And it became like the same consistent thing. And I fell pregnant with them, which I don’t feel too bad about, too, because I had cousins who were having children at the same time. And it really gets those mommy hormones going like, you smell them, you see them. You’re like, Yes, all of it. So I was thrilled with him. So we didn’t try, but we also were halfheartedly trying not to, you know, cause we’re newlyweds, we don’t have much of anything. So we were trying to get settled before we even thought about it and then just kind of happened. And I was happy and oblivious to what it really could be like.

Kiona 4:47
Right? Yeah. So it sounds like Zacarias wasn’t necessarily planned, but also not unplanned. It was kind of just going with the flow and having fun in the process.

Mariela 5:00
Yes.

Kiona 5:02
Beautiful. Okay. Yeah. So what was it like when you found out that you were pregnant? What emotions were going through your mind?

Mariela 5:10
Oh, goodness. Holy crud. Oh, my gosh. I was so excited. I just. I had experience caring for children. My sister had three children before I got pregnant at Zac, and I helped care for them. So I felt like, an old hat, like just, oh, yeah, you hold them, they sleep. They feed so easy. And my niece, who was born before him, she was a unicorn child. Okay? Like she was one of those born happy, slept well, drink her formula. No problems with her tummy. I remember one time I went on a date with my husband, and I was caring for her. I literally plucked her out of the crib, put her in the car seat, drove to the restaurant, set her up, was talking, ordering, eating. She’s asleep the whole time.When she fell on her sleep, she got up in a good mood. And anything I had on my plate. and I’m like, I’ve got this. It’s me.

Kiona 6:08
Mm hmm.

Mariela 6:10
This is so easy.

Kiona 6:11
Right.

Mariela 6:12
And then Zac was born.

Kiona 6:16
Okay, so before we dive into his birth, let’s actually talk a little bit about the pregnancy, because throughout pregnancy you had time to think about, oh, my gosh, what am I going to be like as a parent? Like, how is my baby going to be? So tell me all the details about your pregnancy. Was it challenging? Did you have symptoms?

Mariela 6:35
Well, I’ve always been a larger woman. And so right at the beginning, I guess, I genetically were predisposed and another side to have blood pressure issues. Younger And the bigger size does not help. So I immediately jumped in and I was like, let’s check my blood pressure. Let’s make sure, sure enough, they put me on a blood pressure medication. And so because of that alone, I was considered a higher risk. With my size and the blood pressure, and I was monitored carefully. Otherwise, no morning sickness. I was one of those glowing pregnant women. I slept a lot that pregnancy exhaustion is so different.

Kiona 7:14
Yes.

Mariela 7:15
I don’t think I sleep as well as I do in those times. I remember I’d fall asleep anywhere. It was so draining. But, you know, he was easy. We had no concerns. He was a. Bit of a sleepy, lazy baby, I guess, when in utero. And it’s such a weird thing to say, but we had to keep buzzing him whenever I was being monitored to count ticks every time and they’d give me juice and immediately he’d get the hiccups. But I was like, Oh, okay. Sign of a quiet baby, right? I didn’t really feel concerned. I was just like, I’ll breastfeed, so we’ll save money. There. I was so sure that I was going to breastfeed, but I even refused to get bottles in the house. Everyone knew I was serious about it. Everyone gets excited with babies, and we’re a very big family as it is. My mother was one of 18. My father was one of 12. Everybody had children. I think the last time I counted, I had over 101st cousins.

Kiona 8:09
Wow.

Mariela 8:10
Yeah, it’s insane. So babies are very, like, celebrated in my family.

Kiona 8:14
Oh, that’s so beautiful. Gosh, some people do not have the privilege to have that family size and to still be connected and appreciated and loved by everyone in a way that feels like you have that support network. Of course, you can’t be in love with everyone. There’s got to be someone that’s like. You know, I’ll see that comes in a different time,

Mariela 8:33
when you have a family that size. we all just kind of group in our smaller groups. But we also at least at some point, keep in touch with each other. Yeah, babies are especially in Hispanic culture. They’re they’re very celebrated.

Kiona 8:48
Beautiful. I love that. I love that so much. So you had mentioned that you were so determined to breastfeed that you didn’t allow bottles in the house. That kind of seems like it’s a little bit of a precursor to what postpartum looks like.

Mariela 9:01
Mm. With that situation with Zac yes. I don’t know. I guess that’s one of those things where I shouldn’t have been so sure of myself, especially back then. People always show the good. No one talked about the postpartum. I saw, some people deliver. I saw that, Yes, it was painful. And you have the baby in their blankets and their little dresses. And even with my sister, whenever. She had her babies. If I did go over to her house, it was one of those just to help her with the baby. She didn’t talk to me about how her body was feeling, her emotions were feeling. It was just very hush hush. I don’t really understand that. I don’t know if that goes with that whole mental illness thing that some Hispanics feel like it doesn’t really exist. very like, swallow it. Put it down. Everyone handles it on their own. This is part of what you have to do to.

Kiona 9:55
Yeah. Ooh. So there’s some points that I do want to dive into there. But before we dive into that, let’s go ahead and talk about the moment that you knew that Zacarias was about to come. you put in your guest request form that you did have a scheduled cesarean. And what made it to where you came up to have that decision?

Mariela 10:17
Even though I was on a medication, I did retain a lot of water with him. had trunk legs, like, beautiful, glowing face. And then you go down my waist, you’re like, Oh, are you okay? I just felt so bad. And then my blood pressure was controlled, but not as well as they would want it to be. So I just asked for full term and I was like, Can we at least get to 38 weeks, Yes, it’s not looking amazing, but technically nothing’s spiked or gone crazy. I feel okay. So the doctor did She’s because she she talked about, Look, honestly, between you and me, I was like, C-section. Oh, my God. Please, Please. C-section. I in my mind thought would be so much easier. I hear all these horror stories about how long labor could last. And at that time, I was like, I don’t have anything to prove. So when the doctor mentioned, I’m like, Good, thumbs up. You okay? I’ll know exactly what time a child arrives, great. So they’re like, okay, you I think it was like 38 weeks. And one day they’re like, okay, well, scheduled that day. He’ll arrive at 1230 or something like that. PM. And, you know, we’ll just go on with life that way.

Kiona 11:27
yeah. There’s definitely some ease to that for some people with just making the decision of saying, okay, this is the day I can expect my baby to arrive and I know what I can do all up until that point to prepare and be ready and we’re going to go from there. So that is a very, valid decision to make. Of course. One question I have is with your blood pressure kind of being on the higher side and your providers kind of watching that, did they ask that you take baby aspirin throughout your pregnancy to kind of help?

Mariela 11:57
No, not at that time. Now I see that more often now. Which makes me wonder. I’m like, Why? Why not me then?

Kiona 12:05
Right.

Mariela 12:05
I don’t remember what medication they had me on. I know they had to switch me once, There was a concern, but were also very relaxed, casual, like the only thing I suffered the most was was constipation.

Kiona 12:15
Yeah. Which is a valid thing like that is no joke. going back to the high blood pressure, did your providers watch you for pre-eclampsia throughout your pregnancy because of that?

Mariela 12:28
It was something I’ve read and was worried about because it seems to kind of happen. I know that they talk about headaches and I had a panic of the idea of it just suddenly coming on. So made sure my OBGYN knew that I was scared of it. So, you know, I was just it was just something that they kept an eye on.

Kiona 12:48
I think that that’s a great point to have as well as like even if they didn’t bring it up and then you did your own research on it for you to let them know, Hey, I’ve read about this and I’m a little bit like worried about it. So can you help me keep an eye out on this?

Mariela 13:00
Yeah, for sure.

Kiona 13:02
Yeah. Beautiful. let’s go ahead and dive into Zacaria’s birth. you had a scheduled caesarean at 38 weeks in one day. What did that look like for you?

Mariela 13:13
They asked me to fast from the night before. I remember I was trying to get everything washed, everything ready. You having bed ready, having everything ready to go. No more laundry left, Just all those little things and make sure the car was clean and gassed up and just little things that you always leave for the last minute, like making sure the hospital bag was properly all packed in every. And so we arrived. They had me, like in a pre-op situation where they were drawing blood, setting me up with a IV, and then they had me wait a little bit, which I was trying to nap because, of course, already you’re not sleeping well because of the pregnancy. you’re not comfortable, you’re peeing often. And then, you’re excited and nervous for the next day for surgery. And so I was just sleepless and I was trying to get a nap in, but it just didn’t seem to want to come. So I just laid there for a while quietly. And then, they gowned my mother and my husband. They’re the only two I wanted in my C-section. the will to me. And they gave me the epidural, which was easy for me, And then they lay me down. And Whenever they give it to me, the epidural, I felt like my legs were falling off the table. It’s such a weird sensation. I suddenly had no control of anything underneath. And then they tied me down. It almost feels like you’re crucified. And I know they’re doing that to avoid you injuring yourself. I felt separate from that part of my body with the sheet and everything because I didn’t want to see anything.

Kiona 14:43
Mm hmm.

Mariela 14:43
Want to see your insides turning out during

Kiona 14:46
Right.

Mariela 14:46
a C-section. But it just it was very wild. And, you know, my mother, my husband sat next to my head and then they pulled Zac out he cried immediately. And we were just laughing. We’re like, Oh, he’s angry that we woke him up. And it was just, Oh, it was awesome. I still remember my husband was so excited because, you know, this whole idea like what? We’re apparently grown ups and somebody trusted us with a child.

Kiona 15:13
Right.

Mariela 15:14
Oh and so little and I remember they took us to that what is it called the our room where you get a chance to bond with baby.

Kiona 15:21
Mm hmm.

Mariela 15:21
And at the time I was trying to be nice. With my in-laws because they wanted to see a baby. But I’m like, I don’t want to end up with C-section. So they’re in there with me at the first hour, which I regret at that. I was like, I really should have put my foot down and had a moment to just bond with Zac and my husband. And instead I felt like I was kind of like, waiting for them to leave so I could try nursing and such. So I felt very stressed about that. But as soon as we got to the room, they took Zac, I think they gave him a bath and they were doing some measurements, which I was anxious about. I’m glad that nowadays they tend to try to keep baby with Mom more. But at the time it’s like he was just gone for a few hours and I just kind of had to sit there waiting for him to come back. And then the whole time, everybody’s in the room with me.

All I wanted to do was like, not my mother and my husband get out.

Kiona 16:12
Yeah.

Mariela 16:13
at that time I felt terrible to think that way like everyone’s excited. You know, my husband’s first child, so obviously the first grandchild, they’re. They want to be a part of it. And I’m just like My body stapled together, my bag a urine is hanging out beside you like leave please?

Kiona 16:30
Right? kind of feeling as if you would have put up some boundaries a little bit prior.

Mariela 16:36
Oh, yes.

Kiona 16:37
I think that’s a pure example of. you got to go through it to know what to expect kind of thing, because you’re like, Oh yeah, it’s totally fine. Like I don’t mind you being there. And then when you’re in the moment, you’re like, Crud, I already said that they could be here, but I really don’t want them here anymore. Like, what can I do to change that?

Mariela 16:56
It’s not even surgery because he has surgery. But I felt so, like, run over.

Kiona 17:04
Yeah.

Mariela 17:06
And it’s not pretty. They didn’t have a bra on. I had this ugly gown and then, you know, I’m just like, trying to because yeah they take care of you, but you also have to take care of baby right after the C-section.

Kiona 17:21
Mm hmm.

Mariela 17:21
So it just it felt very. Oh.

Kiona 17:26
Vulnerable.

Mariela 17:27
Yes, but like also sloppy in a weird way.

Kiona 17:31
Yeah. Yeah.

Mariela 17:32
I was like, I don’t want to be sitting anymore. But you have to sit there. Your butt feels numb. I terrible. It sucks. It’s like being on a long bus ride.

Kiona 17:40
Yeah. It’s just. It’s not a really awesome place to be. Sometimes it’s different if everybody that’s there has a role and the intention to be supportive in some way rather than just gawking and booing and eyeing at the fact that there’s a baby. And also, it’s great when people turn to you and check in on you and say, How are you doing? How is your body feeling? What can I do for you

Mariela 18:06
oh, there wasn’t much of that is that’s one of those things that you’re everyone seems to be taught to swallow and keep to yourself. it’s just it’s insane when you really think about it.

Kiona 18:16
Yeah. Yeah. And that you know, you don’t know what to expect until you’ve gone through it. So let’s talk a little bit more in depth about your postpartum. At what point were you able to go back home

Mariela 18:29
Okay, let’s back up to the breastfeeding, which I guess I didn’t really touch into it very much. I delivered it at a hospital that was. pro breastfeeding. And they have to follow certain standards to be considered that. So they were very I guess it’d be supportive to somebody who is breastfeeding, but it felt also kind of pushy in a way. They just, like, Putting him on. You’re putting them on. They would give me a nipple shield And I just was like trusting it because they’re like, No, no, no. He doesn’t need much. They talked about how his belly is really tiny and getting the colostrum. and I was following the steps, but I wasn’t feeling anything other than pain from him sucking away at my breasts. But they kept applauding me for doing all the right things. kangaroo care, and then keep try and keep offering, and then. there’s this thing where they cluster food right at day three and oh, my goodness, kept attaching him on And at this point, I haven’t slept. I don’t know for how long I don’t think I slept that whole week. Because I was stressful getting in there, and anxious and excited and everyone’s coming in and out. And I have no privacy and I’m trying to figure this out. And I was worried about diaper changes because you kind of forget how to change diaper. But I don’t care who you are, you leave that hospital being an expert at changing the diaper for how many diapers you change there. And so they were checking Zac. they didn’t specifically communicate with me. I’d gotten. A handout, a piece of paper with this information. And I’m like, When the, when the heck would somebody read that during this time. And it was explaining, jaundice and making sure baby was getting enough. But I didn’t expect a breastfeeding to be so hard. And then I come from a group of women who, like the ones who do breastfeed are our producers. and then some people will say, well, maybe it’s because you had a section. I’m like, No. My aunt had a C section and she was like a freaking cow. She would give her leftover breast milk to baby me. she didn’t even need a pump. She would just hand express it and it would come out like nothing. these are the women that I experience, the ones who breastfeed like that. Then, yes, there are people who did formula, but I didn’t know what their journey looked like to get to that point. So because I just assumed. Oh, they didn’t want to. Never my mind. I think that you couldn’t. Because how does it work in nature? So they were checking him for jaundice and I don’t remember the numbers toolbar. I remember he was right at the cusp of being tried to be released. And since I was doing everything right there, like send her home. And I was released on a Friday and I was ready to be home. And I kept doing everything I was doing at the hospital. But he kept crying and You know, we’re a newlyweds. So my husband was waiting tables and, like, he had a second job, so he didn’t get paternal leave. He literally was like, I can help you these many days and I have to go back to work. So, were trying to balance that out. So I’m sitting there with a C-section caring for this baby, trying to breastfeed, not knowing what I’m doing. Right Then my mother comes over and she’s like, No, honey, his bellies growling. He’s not getting enough. And we tried a hand pump because that’s something that another thing that I’d never really experienced before, b the women who did breastfeed were over producers. So a pump. What’s a pump? What do we need a pump for? And I remember that she put it on me. And it was like maybe a squirt of milk. Nothing. I don’t I don’t think was even a teaspoon of milk. And so it got to a point where I had him looked at by the pediatrician and, you know, I had mom, I so I didn’t see it then, but he was like pumpkin orange. He had really high jaundice. And they immediately sent me to the hospital with him and he was put back into the NICU and put underneath the lights and I was a mess. I kept blaming myself. You know, it was like something I did wrong. Everybody comforted me. The doctors were good about that they’re like, no no no, kepp trying, keep, trying. The best you can do. But I remember they put me on a pump and I pump for, like 45 minutes, and I got less than an ounce. And then, he did his NICU stay. I was there for everything. was just ready to have him home. He finally was starting putting on weight again, having diapers, And then he really took to formula. I can imagine. Because after struggling with breastfeeding and getting nothing and suddenly, you know, sucking and getting a mouthful of formula, I’m sure he was like, oh, my God, yes, please. But they encouraged me to keep trying. So I ended up getting one of the hospital pumps to come home with me So then I’m stressed because my son nearly died on me. I already I failed horribly, not like, you know, three days in. So my postpartum anxiety was horrific. I became obsessed with his poops To where I didn’t let my husband change people. I wanted to see them.

he was colicky. Of course, at the three week mark. So. And the doctor basically told me, well, don’t you know, don’t cry too much, because that makes the colic worse. What kind of advice is.

Kiona 23:35
Yeah. What is that?

Mariela 23:38
Oh, my Lord. It was insanity. It was insanity. So my husband and I basically ended up taking shifts of staying up with him, because that’s all we could do. And I was so neurotic and stressed about everything. But instead of going to bed and sleeping, I would be on a floor next to him asleep. While he was holding the baby because I don’t want to miss anything. Talking about it now, I see that I needed, antidepressants or something because I was. I was so scared, stressed and anxious. I didn’t want to be away from him.

And I remember that I would pump for 45 minutes and I would get one ounce of breast milk. So half an ounce per breast I was mixing it with this formula, so I’d still get that Burt’s poop. And I was like, I’m doing it. And then that moment, he switched from two ounces of three ounces. I it was more formula than breast milk. And then it changed and I couldn’t see the the breast milk birdseed poop that top anymore. So I was really heartbroken because I felt defeated. Because it is pumping 45 minutes every time. And I wasn’t getting more than an ounce And at that point I realized that she would need formula. And I was so heartbroken, I didn’t realize I had put so much of value on being able to do that. My husband would come home and he’d seen me cry and he’s like, What is wrong with you? He’s so healthy. Look at him. He’s happy. And I’m like, You don’t understand. I don’t know. I don’t know if I can understand as a man. But I was very sad those times. But, you know, the colic finally went away. He was a really beautiful, happy little boy. I was still neurotic. I had a lot of anxiety. I would catch myself sitting next to him while he napped, making sure he wouldn’t turn his face down. Now, in hindsight, I like that was the biggest red flag You should have been getting help. But those things you don’t talk about and when the doctor asks you the questions of how are you? Do you feel like hurting yourself for him? Well, no, of course. No, I don’t feel like hurting myself for him. It’s like, you know. Are you feeling sad? Sometimes I’m like. What do you mean? I’m not crying anymore. So I just answered those questions. I don’t know. I don’t know. I don’t know if I if I was convincing myself that I wasn’t feeling those things. and they’re just like these brief questions that happened, at their milestone appointments. So I just continued on, you know, trucking with postpartum depression and postpartum anxiety. things that I was experiencing and not telling anybody about. Because to me, I was like this. This felt normal.

Kiona 26:37
Right.

Mariela 26:37
Which is insane. To say it out loud now. And so finally I decided that even though I had big dreams of having at least four kids, that this was good enough for me. I barely survived it. He was a chubby, beautiful little kid. oh my gosh. I had the most fun with the toddler years. still to this day, if people say, toddlers are terrible, or this night, I’m like, oh, no, no. Give me ten tantrum ing toddlers over a newborn. I know how to make them happy.

Kiona 27:11
Right.

Mariela 27:12
Outside the play. Give him a snack. We’re good.

Kiona 27:14
Right?

Mariela 27:17
Difficult.

Kiona 27:18
It is. It absolutely is. So I want to touch on something here because I hear the emotion and see the emotion on your face of what you went through when it came to breastfeeding and experiencing anxiety and depression without realizing in the moment that that’s what was happening. And I don’t know if anybody has told you this yet. It’s been 14 years since Zacarias was born.

Mariela 27:45
Yes.

Kiona 27:45
But I just want to say, with just hearing your story and seeing how much emotion you hold to that, I want to say that you are a bad ass. Okay? Because you gave it your all. And I can hear that. You gave it every single ounce that you had. And I want to let you know now that it was enough. You are not a failure. Zacarias is 14 years old. You did amazing. And I barely know you. But I can hear the commitment and determination in your voice that that is something that you really fought for. So don’t discredit yourself on that.

Mariela 28:34
No, no, thank you. Thank you. I I’ve grown and I understand. And even when I decided to start formula feeding, called myself his appetizer. I would slap him on so he had something to chew on while he waited for the bubble to warm.

Kiona 28:51
I love that. That is beautiful.

Mariela 28:55
It did help with the call. I don’t know why. As soon as I would put them on it, we would start just passing gas like crazy. I just it’s funny. I mean, like I said, it’s it’s emotional now when I think about it back then, just because I feel sorry for her. And It was unnecessary. And it didn’t have to be like that. But I didn’t understand that aspect because it nobody talks about it or at that time nobody talked about it. And, you know, even now, there’s so much I don’t want to call it ignorance, because it sounds mean, but people assume so much and don’t realize that breastfeeding is such a sensitive topic for some people.

Kiona 29:35
Absolutely.

Mariela 29:36
And even the ones who nurse well struggle. And it’s a lot of work. So when I hear about Mom’s nursing till they’re two or whatever, I’m just like, That’s amazing. And then there’s so much shame involved with what we’re feeding. Like. But. Okay, but what are the options? You either can or you can’t.

Kiona 29:54
Right. And I think that’s really important to mention, because, you know, there are some people that make the choice to like not even try breastfeeding and go straight to formula feeding or they make the choice to breastfeed and it doesn’t work out the way they intend to. Every single choice that a person makes is a valid reason for them to make that choice. and it’s so hard because it’s so easy for people that are not in the situation to assume that they know what’s right for the person in the situation. And they say, Well, if I was in that situation, I would have done X, Y, and Z when really? I doubt it.

So definitely challenging and it’s so easy for people to say and put their opinions in on how you decide to do what you do. But you’re here today and you made a lot of really tough decisions to get to where you are right now. And I love the appetizer analogy. I think that’s great. It’s a positive way to look at that situation, because that’s exactly what it is, that positive moment of still being able to give them a little, you know, cause that that was important to you. And so I think that’s great.

Mariela 31:06
Thank you. thankfully, nowadays, even though I sound sad, I honestly have no regrets.

Kiona 31:11
Yeah. And I also want to say I give you some massive kudos because as you are here right now on the Birth As We Know It Podcast, talking about your experience and you’re not staying silent about it and you’re not telling people to shove their emotions downwards because we don’t talk about mental illness or struggle with parenting. So good job.

Mariela 31:34
Nowadays. I’m very proud of the pill. And talking.

Kiona 31:36
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Pro the pill and pro talking about it.

Mariela 31:41
Yes. Do what you got to do to be happy.

Kiona 31:44
Yes, absolutely. That’s great. So as you got further on into your postpartum period, at what point would you say that you felt the depression anxiety lift from you?

Mariela 31:57
I think the postpartum depression lifted probably once Zac became a toddler. he was a hoot. I felt like really understanding, communicate with him. I liked being next to him, experiencing all his first things. and answering his questions. I tried really hard. Not not to make a mama’s boy.

Kiona 32:18
Yeah. Hard not to do that, though.

Mariela 32:21
Oh, it’s hard. It’s hard. But I didn’t want to be one of those boy moms, if you know what I mean.

Kiona 32:25
Right? Yeah.

Mariela 32:26
I was like, My child is growing up to be a separate entity from me and I got to enjoy this. as he got older, I encouraged a lot more bonding between him and his dad.

Kiona 32:36
Mm hmm.

Mariela 32:36
I’m like, Okay, I was the dinosaur expert, Now teach them about superheroes and make them a fully rounded nerd.

Kiona 32:42
Yeah. Beautiful. Love that. Nerds all the way.

Awesome. that’s beautiful. I think it’s great that you kind of have like a mental stamp of when you started to feel the positive side of being a parent more and exploring the ins and outs of toddlerhood and exploration. That is always so fun to be a part of. Now, as we go a little bit further into the future, you found out that you were pregnant again.

Mariela 33:13
Yes.

Kiona 33:13
What were your emotions there?

Mariela 33:17
Oh, goodness. my heart always did want another child. I told myself, well, maybe I’ll foster children as Zac gets older. That way, my home won’t feel so alone. But Zack’s at a point where he’s older. I go back to the gym, I’m taking care of myself and the year that I got pregnant, my insurance. Gave me a discount for being healthier, so I paid less in insurance, which is really hilarious when you consider everything that went down that year. But I’m assuming because of how healthy I was, then my body started to ovulate more. Maybe there’s some correlation between weight loss and having an easier time getting pregnant. I couldn’t tell you exactly why, Or maybe just God had a sense of humor, right And he went ta-da! and bam, I’m pregnant with twins.

Kiona 34:11
Yeah.

Mariela 34:11
Yep. I had been using the same just an over-the-counter birth control. It wasn’t the pill because I had reservations about all those hormonal contraception. I mean, you read all these things and you worry about them. So I felt, you know, this is good enough for us and what’s been working. And I got pregnant I remember I peed on the stick. I saw the lines. I went back to bed and I told my husband, we’re pregnant, and then we went back to sleep.

What am I going to worry about? that’s a problem for nine months down the road.

Kiona 34:40
Right. how soon after taking your pregnancy test did you find out that you were having twins?

Mariela 34:49
Oh, gosh, that didn’t happen until I called the doctor and they’re like, I want to see you at the few month, just to be sure. They’re like, Yep, you are. And that’s the time where I finally told my mother because I didn’t tell her anything. Zip. Only my brother and my husband knew. I remember She asked like, Oh, how did your appointment with the doctor go? I’m like, Oh, it went like this. And then I showed her a picture of the positive pregnancy test. Now she swears this didn’t happen, but the first thing out of her mouth was, like you, bitch.

Oh, I’m never forgetting that. That’s hilarious. This is just like what? Because, I mean, Zac was nine years old by then, so I think everyone thought like that, that she’s two for real. That’s not happening anymore. she was just like mouth open, shocked. Everyone was thrilled. I remember I had gone to the first sonogram like that one where they check in, make sure everything looks good. I even told my husband, like, stay at work. There’s no point for you to miss. I’ll show you the pictures of stimuli sitting around. And then I went on their line there and the sonographer was just kind of like, does she know there’s two in there? And I’m like, I’m sorry. Huh? And I like, who? Who paid you to make this trick happen to me? What’s it’s like, Are you for real? And then I happy cried. Again, I guess my first instinct is to worry. It’s like, you know, Well, yeah, I’m having two. So I had to call my husband, be like, sit down. It’s twins.

Kiona 36:22
Oh, my gosh. I can’t even imagine that shock. I mean, like, you know, I’ve heard some stories on here where people do find out that they’re having twins and even though you think that they’ll have the same reaction of just like surprised, like they’re some people that just like, are really sad and they’re like, no, I can’t do this. But then there’s also people that are like, Oh my God, this is so exciting. I can’t wait. and I also really like how you thought you were only going to have one, you still wanted a bigger family and then you just got two at once.

Mariela 36:54
Yes. No. Like I was so set, I was going to have a bigger family that, Zac we didn’t originally settle on his name. We actually butted heads. I wanted to name my firstborn son, X, Xavier Xavier with an ex. Because my father’s name is Javier with a J, and my brother’s name is Harvey with a J, And I was like, I know I want it with the X, I want to be a little different. And my husband was like, Yeah, yeah, yeah. When we were dating. And then I got pregnant and it’s a boy and he’s like, I lied no.

Kiona 37:22
Oh.

Mariela 37:23
You. So that we went back and forth because he’s Jewish. So he wanted a Hebrew name. And I’m like, we’re both Mexican, I think we should really, embrace our roots here. Let’s not lose our identity and all of this. And so we ended up going back and forth and settled on biblical old, traditional Spanish names with a Hebrew middle name. I was like, That’s the compromise. because of that, huge because I mean, it was like a good month about going back and forth before we settled. Zacarias. so then we went ahead and settled on names for the next child. It was a boy, a girl. And I’m like, Oh, well, what if it’s twins? I’ll just put those names out there. So almost ten years before we had already had the girls names decided.

Kiona 38:07
Wow.

Mariela 38:08
Yes, I know. I was like, That’s so funny. Why would you even think, What if it’s twins? And so we had all those we had the boys name decided in the girl’s name so that in case that were to ever happen. And they’re just sitting there all dusty, all forgotten about. And then now it’s like, well, we have the news that that was.

Kiona 38:24
Yeah. Yeah. Do twins happen to run in your family at all?

Mariela 38:28
Yes. Ish Again, my mother’s mother had 18, so she had two sets of twins. And of all those 18, on one woman had one set of twins. And of all of the over 101st cousins that I have, only me and my cousin who actually I grew up really close to, we both had a set of twins about a year apart. So yes, they do run the family. But that’s a lot of people in there to say it’s friends of the family. So we’re answering that question with a yes or no, because technically yes.

Kiona 38:58
Yeah, Technically, yes, it’s true. They are within each of the generations, right? It’s just not as commonly produced throughout all of the, like, based of, like, statistically, there is a very, very small amount of people that did conceive twins

Mariela 39:14
Yes. And they’re all fraternal. No, Nobody has identical twins in our family.

Kiona 39:19
Wow. Yeah, It’s amazing the way that things work out, right?

Mariela 39:24
Yes, for sure. For sure. But yeah, so because I was 35 years old, I was considered geriatric. You know, my dusty old uterus or my gummy ovaries or whatever. They forgot how to count. So I was immediately sent to a maternal fetal medicine. I had a high risk doctor because I technically also still had blood pressure medication, but it was very controlled, very low. Everything was great because, I mean, I had been taking care of myself. so they’re like, No, no issues. We’re just going to keep an eye on you. And because I was high risk, they had done the blood test and were able to tell me the girls genders, like right away. So I was able to be like, It’s girls. It’s girls, it’s girls. So you have the boy and then you dream of the bows. I mean, I had already told myself, okay, i it’s boys, then I’ll just be the mother of the men. I didn’t want to have any gender disappointment. all children are blessing. tried ahead of time before finding the gender to be at peace with whatever happened.

Kiona 40:19
Right.

Mariela 40:20
everything was good. And then running around like

23 weeks. I felt a lump on my left breast. Very like hard lump. It didn’t hurt. I couldn’t squeeze it. It didn’t move. It was. maybe the size. The con like unsheltered con a pretty good size and I was like, Whoa, what the heck is that? You know, because it literally came out of nowhere. And with your breasts changing so much, the beginning of pregnancy. half time, I was afraid, taking off my bra because they were so sore. But, you know, I was applying lotion and it went down to my décolletage and that’s when I felt it. And I was like, okay, well, It could be anything because you’re pregnant. Your breasts are changing. I waited until my regular appointment and I almost didn’t even say anything And then I was like, Hey, you know, at the end of the appointment about to leave, oh, just by the way, I felt this lump, I’ not too worried. But, you know, wha do you think? She’s like, Oh, you know, like, that’s a firm lump. And she’s like, Well, let’s go ahead and, make an appointment for you to have a sonogram. And I sure went down there and I could tell when they did the sonogram, because I first I just told my husband I was like, oh, this is going on. And when they did the sonogram, can’t tell you anything. But I could tell immediately that the doctor was like, This is cancer. He didn’t say it, but his face said it. And so I went and made the appointment to get a biopsy. And I hated how casual everybody was, but I didn’t want to accept that. Yes, it is. B I was already like my brain was already there because of the way that doctor looked at me. And made the point for the biopsy. I told my brother, it’s just my brother. My husband knew. I didn’t want to worry anybody. And my brother was like, Nah, you know, just like me just comforting me. He’s like, I won’t be anything. Don’t worry about it, And then whenever we do get the good results and we’ll just have pizza or something, you know? And the biopsy was scheduled, I want to say, the Thursday morning before Easter. So that Easter weekend is happening and I wasn’t expecting any thing to happen until the week came back because that Monday everyone had all. But early in the morning, my OBGYN doctor called me and she’s like, I hate to do this over the phone. But it’s cancer. It’s aggressive. It’s a grade three and it’s staged 2B. I just was like, I felt I felt like I was alone in the room. I didn’t know how to respond. And I was just like, okay, okay, okay, okay. she was talking. She was saying like, okay, you normally going to do this over the phone, but we have to act fast. I already have these doctors going to call you for scheduling of these appointments. should just talk. And then me, I’m like, okay, okay, whatever. Yes, it’s just this. she’s like, You have any questions for me? And then, well, the first thing that came out of my mouth, I want all three of us to survive. And she’s like, That’s what we’re going to do, honey. So we’re going to try, okay? And I was just scared. I mean, now I know what she said, but whenever she first told me the words, was like muffled noise. I didn’t want to hear what kind of cancer it was. didn’t want to know anything. I don’t want research. It. It was already too much just hearing that. And I called my husband and I was bawling to him and telling him, you know, like oh my god. they said this. I don’t know what’s happening. The doctors are going to call me. I texted my because I didn’t want to disturb him at work. And they’re like, hey, he’s like, what they say? I texted them. It’s breast cancer. And I remember immediately he called me. And he’s like, No, like playing. And I’m like, I don’t know what’s going on yet. But immediately, like, i doctor’s appointment start to stop, start. I got a scheduled an appointment with a surgical oncologist. And then I had my appointment the next day with the Maternal-fetal medicine doctor. And I was trying to act like nothing is happening. I took my son to his dentist appointment that day, and then they had me schedule his appointment for six months out.And the whole time I’m writing it, am I going to be here to take him? You know, as I’m putting this appointment, I’m just like, because I don’t know what that means. And my brother came home early because he’s like, I can’t work right now. And we were sitting there talking and I was just like, how am I going to leave my children without a mother? How am I going to do this? there’s a lot of tears, he helped me tell my parents. We were all just stunned. My sister came over and we were all just sitting around the room. It was a very somber. I hated it. I hated that they felt like I was at my own weight. But I mean, what do you say? I didn’t have answers. I didn’t have anything. I remember that night I was whiped. I fell asleep immediately. And I have an appointment the next day with my MFM. And it happened to be that my regular doctor couldn’t see me. I got seen by a different doctor who was herself breast cancer survivor, who had survived the same type of breast cancer I had. I was a hormone positive breast cancer. So literally the hormones involved with pregnancy were making my cancer grow fast.

That’s why it showed up out of nowhere. And she sat with me and she comforted me and she told me, Your babies are perfect.They’re right on track. You’re at a right gestational age where you we can start chemotherapy right away. And she just gave me all of this, like, comforting statistics saying that this is not the end. You’re in a good place, so we can we can battle this. And immediately I went to go see my surgical oncologist, and he was a very big comfort. He was like, okay, bad news is this is a very aggressive cancer. It is growing fast. But good news is because it’s aggressive and fast growing, it’s more unstable and easier to attack. it’s more likely to respond to the chemotherapy. it was insane. there were times where I would be coming from one doctor going downstairs to the next doctor being called to make a third appointment. I had appointments all the time and I immediately got a port placed. They cut right here next to my heart and placed the machine that they would be able to put the chemo straight into and it would be sent straight to my heart and dispersed from there. I remember going to surgery and I was like some surgical oncologist, I was not his first pregnant woman with breast cancer, but I was first pregnant with twins one. Like, okay, I’m special then.

And I got that done and then I had to call my medical insurance to try to pressure them to start chemo faster. You know, apparently, I don’t know. I guess they thought I was doing it for fun. I

Kiona 46:55
Yeah.

Mariela 46:56
mean, isn’t it insane? I had to call them, like, twice. And then the, like, we push it through. It’s approved to start chemo. I was like, yay… ay?!?

And then my brother demanded he was going to take me to all my appointments and infusions. Because we’re trying to avoid of my husband missing too much work because, we’re trying to get money together to get everything dealt with. And I had even thought about trying something called cold capping where they put like this freezer. This frozen almost helmet over your head to try to avoid a hair loss. But I just. I was afraid of spending any money on it. I just my mind was like, okay, well, the babies are coming. This is unplanned. You know, we have to just hide this Penney’s get ready for this moment when they come home. so my brother took me to my first infusion, and I remember I walked in. he lifted his T-shirt. He’s like, Look, Mariela. We got you. And he had gotten an emergency, a tattoo appointment, and he had the breast cancer ribbon with my name on it tattooed on his ribs. And I’m like, Oh, my God, because he had this all black and white tattoos and he has this one hot pink tattoo with my name on it. I’m like ahhh, you’re so sweet, blah, blah, blah. But also laaaame! Now every time a woman see’s it they’ll be like? Who the hell is that?

Kiona 48:12
That’s a truth sibling response. Like, Oh my God, I love you. Thank you so much. But also, wha are you thinking?

Mariela 48:19
So we went in. I was scared, of course. And that little bit of time between getting my diagnosis and finally going in for the first infusion, I could visibly see how much bigger my tumor had gotten. Like, that’s how fast it was growing. It was insane. But they sat in the chair. They put they caught the red devil. That’s what it’s called, because it’s bright red. I forgot what other chemo was involved in there, but they put it straight into my port. I had to keep chewing ice and sucking ice to make sure the inside of my mouth would be numb so I wouldn’t get mouth sores. There are so many little things you don’t never hear about. Like before a started chemo, I had to change my toothbrush out had to go for my sensitive toothpaste. I had to get a special mouth rinse. They discouraged me from flossing. Just all these random things that you never think about just because the way that chemo works, It’s attacking all your fast dividing cells, which is how it attacks the tumor. But that includes your entire digestive tract lining your skin, your hair, nails. But I went in, I was drinking a ton of water. Like, at first I had started drinking to get a gallon of water, but by the middle of my chemo, I had switched two gallons of water daily.

Kiona 49:40
Wow.

Mariela 49:41
Isn’t that insane! like I say it out loud. And I was like, What? But I’m already a tall woman. I’m a larger woman. I have more mass with these babies. And then the chemo, and I need to get it out of my system. So I was just guzzling water nonstop. And my brother sat there and we just like the infusion went to it was good having him, though, because were so dumb. All we did was laugh. We’re cracking each other up. The dumbest things. I remember you try to play. What was it? He’d be playing a number game and I’d be like sitting there answering for him over the shoulder. He’d be like, Stop, Or he color or we’d laugh about something or we would be like, God, why is everyone so serious in here? Because we’d be the only one laughing. But it’s like, duh. People have cancer.

Kiona 50:30
Yeah, but also that’s beautiful that you got to have that, because if you just sat in your sorrow, even though that’s also a valid thing to do as sitting in your sorrow and grieving what’s happening in the moment. That is such a valid thing to do. And if you have the opportunity to laugh, laugh.

Mariela 50:49
Oh, gosh. We did. We’d laughed a lot. Each other. A lot.

Kiona 50:55
Yeah. That’s great.

Mariela 50:57
Oh, gosh. It drove me crazy, though. You know how terrible it feels to walk into a room full of people. We’re all fighting for our lives and they feel sorry for you. Because I walked in with this giant pregnant belly of twins and I had to sit down with everyone else. A get my infusion.

Kiona 51:13
Yeah, that’s definitely something to think about. I, I didn’t even consider that. you’re visibly pregnant.

Mariela 51:21
Visibly, visibly pregnant. There’s not even a little like maybe. No, I have twins. My stomach was sticking out like crazy. Sometimes I would ask me, Are you sure it’s not triplets? Because they just carry out big

Kiona 51:36
they

Mariela 51:36
old belly.

Kiona 51:36
were just. Yeah. Goodness. Okay. So I do have one question, though. said that your lump in your breast was more noticeable from the time of diagnosis to the first time you got chemo. How much time span was that and at what gestation were you when you went in for chemo the first time?

Mariela 51:56
Oh, gosh let me see, I got diagnosed at 25 weeks and I immediately got my port placed. So by 26 weeks, I had my port. And then it took me maybe like a week and a half to berate my insurance. So thats 27 So I probably started maybe like right at 28 weeks. I started my infusions.

Kiona 52:17
So you’re telling me that this cancer was so aggressive that it went from not being able to visibly see but feel to being able to visibly see the lump?

Mariela 52:33
Yes. Now, there is also a lot of swelling.

Kiona 52:36
Yes.

Mariela 52:36
Of course, your body’s responding to it. But, yeah, I couldn’t see it. And then I felt it, which was larger. And then from that, next time I remember, I took off my bra and it was just I could see the slope where it was. And that’s terrifying. because I mean, especially at that point. I couldn’t even get a CAT scan. I don’t know if it’s spread. It doesn’t look like it’s spread. They don’t feel it in my armpit. All we know is because of the signs on stage two, I guess I could have gotten an MRI. sometimes the insurance won’t cover things unless there’s. More proof, more worry, like, Oh, I feel in a lump now. Now we need to find out how far it’s gone or what’s the point. We’re just going to start. It’s it’s really weird. Insurance is funny about that kind of stuff. There’s times where I went on a CAT scan and the doctor was like, Insurance might not cover it. Are you sure? but at that time, it was never an option for me.

Kiona 53:32
That does bring me to question How did you have to do things differently since you were pregnant with the steps that you could take in order to slow things down?

Mariela 53:42
Th chemo drugs were safe.My placenta protected the babies. by the time I went through my body and went through the placenta, it wouldn’t have effect on them. They were fully formed. At this point, you’re just growing in size, right? Putting on weight, getting bigger so everything else looked okay. And that’s one of the reasons that with any kind of cancer in pregnancy, they try not to do any sort of chemotherapy until you’re in your second trimester.

Kiona 54:06
that makes sense.

Mariela 54:07
Yeah. Now, ironically, I’m getting all these chemo’s done. I couldn’t take Alive. I had to stick with Tylenol.

So whenever I experienced joint pain from my chemo, they were like, Well, you can do Singulair, the allergy medication that helps with the swelling.

Kiona 54:25
Wow. Okay.

Mariela 54:26
Yeah. Not just little things like that it’s the cancer world. It’s the cancer life. I’m laughing at myself because it’s like, Oh, wow, it has been five years. There’s some things I used to talk about all the time, and now, thankfully, I’m having a hard time remembering.

Kiona 54:38
Right? Yeah.

Mariela 54:40
For a while. I lived it. That’s all I cared about. All I researched about. Which sucks because you have this giant shadow over pregnancy. of course, for me, I always my girls would top worry. Are they okay? Are they going good? that my treatment to make sure I’m still here. Like I just. Babies first. Babies first. But all everything else really fell by the wayside. Like, I wasn’t planning my baby shower. My sister jumped in, and, like, all these daydreams I had about how I could look about this and that, if it wasn’t important, it wasn’t in my mind. And so thankfully, my sister jumped in. she planned a baby shower. and then she made it early enough to where? Be, I mean, right after two weeks. Usually most women will lose all their hair, like all just falls off. But because I was pregnant and with pregnancy. it. Can kind of fall off slower So I was able to like clip on a ponytail. some color. A then I had my baby shower a little earlier, so it looks like I have hair. I look fine in my baby shower picture. I’m glowing. My my, my ponytail is nice. Long. You would. You would never know. But I did do well on chemo, though. I was very lucky. I didn’t experience most of the side effects that a lot of people have. I was careful, too, though, so I didn’t get a lot of the mouth stories. I was still constipated, if you can imagine.

Kiona 56:03
Oh, great.

Mariela 56:05
Right. It’s like. I mean, I should count my blessings. That’s a really bad struggle for a lot of people who dealt with chemo and no vomiting for me either. Every calorie stayed right in their.

Kiona 56:16
Good.

Mariela 56:18
Oh, my goodness. But yes, my sister, she’s the one who reached out to April, the photographer. And she had shared the story with her. Try to squeeze me in. But April just had such a big heart and she gave it to me for free. My entire pregnancy photo shoot. And there was a moment where I was feeling really hideous in my head. It was starting to fall out. And then she took some really beautiful pictures of me. So I’m like, okay, I’m not a troll. I look okay sometimes.

Kiona 56:45
Well, yeah. Yeah. Those photos are beautiful, by the way. They are so beautiful.

Mariela 56:50
That’s all. That’s all her. That’s all. That’s all her artistry. She just managed to get me good angles, I’m sure.

But yeah, it’s because of my sister Vanessa that I was able to still have those those things that most women look forward to. But because of it, had it been up to me, I wouldn’t have even touch it. I was too focused on my breast cancer journey. But thankfully, my tumor did respond very well. That’s another thing I visibly saw shrink with treatment. And I did so well during the ANC infusions. that they were given to me docents. So instead of a single dose, it’s doubled up dose. And it did so well that instead of moving into Taxol, which is a different kind of chemo just having a single dose, she went ahead and doubled it up. So I was able to finish almost all my chemo during pregnancy.

Kiona 57:39
Wow.

Mariela 57:40
I don’t know how other women do it for pregnant with cancer. I’m like, It’s like you could take your baby with you during infusions. And some infusions are long.

Kiona 57:48
Right.

Mariela 57:49
Like with my ANC once, I think I was normally there for 4 hours and then with the Taxol. My body didn’t love it, so they had to give me a really slow dose. And that first day I was there for 8 hours in a chair, g my infusion slowly. Because when they first introduced it, who scared the crap out of me and my husband? He was there with me for that infusion. I guess because Taxol comes from a tree. If I understand correctly, from plant matter, I think my body recognized it as foreign or something. And it, like, freaked out. So I remember I was getting the infusion and I was like, Wait, something doesn’t feel right. Sat up. My husband said my face was red, my eyes were red. I was beet red. And I felt like I was going to throw up. I felt like I’d brought something spicy and immediately started giving me all these medications to help my body. relax. I don’t want to call it an allergic reaction because I wasn’t allergic to it. But basically. That’s how my body responded to it. And so they were giving me all these medications to give me back to normal. Oh, it was horrible. I felt. like knives were stabbing at my kidneys. I couldn’t even catch my breath. It was so painful. But otherwise. And those, like, little moments here and there. I did well. I was like, okay, now I know I just have to get slowly. So we just continued on with treatment and, the babies looked fine. In fact, every time I would get a infusion the cool liquid, my girls would start kicking. And I’m like, That’s a little twisted in my brain. Yes. Here comes our poison, ladie.

Kiona 59:21
Oh, that also, though, has to kind of be part of the many reasons why there was a silver lining in that experience of feeling them kick knowing that you’re doing this and having that moment to kind of sit back and say, We’re getting through this, ladies. It’s okay.

Mariela 59:40
So much happened and I just kept looking at that due date like, okay, that’s my first step. Once I get to there, then I can do all the rest of my treatments. And so they scheduled me for a C-section. They didn’t want any surprises. Aria has C-section before. I’m sure that probably came into it. I was like, whatever’s easier. Whatever gets these girls out healthy. my surgical oncologist had offered me a month off of chemo to try and give me an option to breastfeed the girls. And with everything I went through that last time, I was like, No. I already have a lot going on. And if I skip the step, I can have my other treatments happen faster. So they don’t need my nasty old colostrum That’s been “chemofied” or whatever it is. Let’s skip it this time. So I had a C-section. They were born a minute apart. Serafina came out screaming. Maggie had some fluid in her lung from the C-section. So she went straight to the NICU. And they gave me, Sera, directly. that was very difficult at that moment because I was like, my heart is split up into three pieces. I have one with me. My son is I don’t know where, being taken care of by somebody. And my other daughters in the NICU. And I want to be with all three of them. It was very hard. And at that point I was already bald. I didn’t have any eyebrows. spent so much time answering the nurse’s questions because they’re like, Oh, you have breast cancer. Which that was nice, though, to be able to be like, nope, not try to breastfeed my breast cancer. No boobs. We’re good. It’s like I had an easy answer because even then you still feel like you have to explain. So it was different from the first time. And I didn’t feel guilt saying, no, I really didn’t. But it just felt kind of twisted that I still felt like I had to explain.

Kiona 1:01:28
Yeah.

Mariela 1:01:29
my first U.S. was I felt pretty easy considering the second time around. I felt more pain. I think it was because of the chemo. I felt like a fried little turtle or something. There was no.

Kiona 1:01:44
Fried little turtle. Oh, gosh.

Mariela 1:01:46
thats what I felt like.

Kiona 1:01:47
Oh, yeah. you just didn’t feel like yourself.

Mariela 1:01:51
Not all at all. I mean, you already feel like a bit of a mess postpartum or some women, I should say. You walk out with, your belly all crazy. Your boobs are everywhere. And I didn’t have that beautiful hair during pregnancy. I had bald. I like I look like a lord Baltimore.

Kiona 1:02:10
Oh.

Mariela 1:02:12
And so me and my brother laughed a few times about that kind of stuff. He ended up shaving his head.

Kiona 1:02:17
Oh.

Mariela 1:02:17
My hair. I know, right?

Kiona 1:02:19
Your brother is the best

Mariela 1:02:21
Oh, he’s so much. Don’t even tell him that. It’s going to get his score, go to his head. Although he ended up embracing it anyway because his hair was thinning. So I think he looks better balding anyway.

Kiona 1:02:31
Oh, but that is so amazing, though. I say amazing because you are going through this treacherous experience. But there is so much support and positivity around you to help support you through that and the fact that you had that just fills me with joy because even though you were going through the physical symptoms and chemo and everything alone, you had your family and team right there.

Mariela 1:03:03
Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.

Kiona 1:03:05
Yeah. That’s amazing.

Mariela 1:03:07
there were fun times. Had I been by myself all the time, it would not have been like that. the nurses always felt like we were having so much fun because we’re just like bunch of kids laughing,

Kiona 1:03:19
Right. And why not? Why not? You know,

Mariela 1:03:21
right? Not.

Kiona 1:03:22
there’s always going to be something that you can laugh about.

Mariela 1:03:25
Oh, ye, Yeah. And and my therapist says, if you’re somebody who has dark humor, you’re actually more intelligent than most people. So I’m like, Well, I am frickin smart. Like

Kiona 1:03:35
Yeah.

Mariela 1:03:35
load smart.

Kiona 1:03:36
I’m a genius. I’m a genius.

Mariela 1:03:38
I am a genius.

Kiona 1:03:40
I love that. I love that so much. humor can really get you through hard times. And it’s very obvious that that seemed to be really supportive for you and your family to be able to kind of find a way to take such a serious situation and make it a little bit lighter.

Mariela 1:03:55
Yeah.

Kiona 1:03:56
Yeah, I think that’s beautiful. I do have a question when it comes to your postpartum recovery, because you had a cesarean and then right after your cesarean and right after the girls were born, you went right back into cancer treatment, Correct?

Mariela 1:04:13
Oh, yeah. Correct. Yes. I fact, I was allowed to stay at the hospital for four days because Maggie was in the NICU and she wasn’t holding her three ounces that they were trying to feed her every 3 hours. They kept coming up. So she was like the only healthy child in there and she had to stay there. Until she met a certain criteria before they let her go home. So I had her with her and I felt horrible. Horrible. my husband would come home from work and then immediately I’d have him like, you know, house mom here, Sarah, make sure Zac, get showered. He’s in bed at this time and go to the NICU with my. And I could feel that the doctor felt bad for me for reasons. And she went ahead and let Maggie go home a little earlier. I just had to have an appointment with the pediatrician the exact next day. So it worked out that way and she did well. But unfortunately, having her go straight to the NICU and me being so held back with, Serafina and Zac. I couldn’t give her as much one on one time as I would have wanted to. It took me a long time to properly bond with her, and I felt an insane amount of guilt about it. Oh, horrible. Horrible. because, like you said, I went right back into chemotherapy treatments. I was not even on month. I was not going to work out a C-section. And I was already talking to the plastic surgeon who was going to give me implants after my bilateral mastectomy. So, anybody who’s had a C-section, you’re oozing blood. Your cut feels like crap. You’re wearing the maternity leggings, maternity jeans, maternity mesh underwear with the giant pads. And i’m. I’m waddling in there, barely walk in to talk to this doctor about what we’re going to do about these boobs.

Kiona 1:05:58
Hmm. Hmm. Hmm. Hmm.

Mariela 1:05:59
But but the idea of going straight flat was too much for me. As you can imagine. I mean. My breasts were like one of the more feminine things about me. T very full. I don’t have a butt. I don’t have a tiny waist. I am a bit of a giant woman. So this idea of like, okay, your balls, you’ll feel hideous. Let’s go ahead and chop off your boobs, too. I was like, No, I need direct to implant please. what ended up happening was I had one more infusion left. my oncologist had me wait two weeks instead of one week. She said, Just give me that extra week of healing. And then I had my last infusion, and then I had almost exactly one month. Of healing time which the chemo because it’s attacking the fast dividing cells made my C-section scar heal so slowly. Oh my word. I had to give so much more effort to it. Make sure it was dry like more so planned anybody else would have at a normal time. I just oh, it was horrific. But, you know, by that time I had both my twins at home, so that was good. I had Zac finished my infusion, but now we’re just healing and waiting for the bilateral mastectomy. And that one month after came October 1st I went into surgery. I cut the girl’s nails. I kissed them goodbye because I was like, okay, I won’t be able to hold off for a long time after. And so we went straight to the hospital and I went into for a six hour surgery where they had both of my breasts removed. And then I went straight to implants I woke up and they told me that I had negative margins. Everything looked good. They got rid of the cancer. I was like, Yeah. You know, like awesome husband, Go straight home and make sure Zac has done his homework Because, I mean, of course, school started right around the time the girls were born. So it’s like, dun dun dun dun. So like, husband do that. Then my poor brother was sitting there waiting for my say so to leave. And I’m like, just make sure you find out what room it is. So, you know, th both been there for over 6 hours. They’re exhausted. And they came in wearing their breast cancer shirts and like their hot pink converse. My brother, of course. Right.

Kiona 1:08:09
Right. Like I said, he sounds awesome. Just got to say.

Mariela 1:08:13
You can’t tell him that he’s terrible.

But yeah, so I remember I even sent him a picture like, trust me, I really close to my husband, but I goof off with my brother more because he doesn’t have to care for children. So my husband’s asleep, and at 3:00 in the morning, I send a picture to my brother. my bald ass. You’re just bald. Bald. And I can’t use my hands because, you know, I just had a C-section. So I’m literally sitting, you know, with my hands spread out on top pillows. And I grab my thought and make sure take a picture of me holding little package of, graham crackers. So I was like, look, I have a snack at 3:00 in the morning. So we’re just laughing about that, even though I can’t frickin hold the phone.

Kiona 1:08:53
Right.

Mariela 1:08:54
And I felt sorry for my mom and my husband because I had to both handle the twins at a month and a half old. But I just got to sit there and recover. I didn’t get to hold them for two weeks at all, and then by that time they could bring them to me on a pillow and I could like. Maybe hold the bottle and kind of rock them with my knees while they’re on the pillow. Sets there by. I had to focus on recovery. I couldn’t turn on a light switch. I couldn’t feed myself. the beginning. It was one of the most painful, excruciating things I’ve ever experienced in my life. I had to take painkillers around the clock every 4 hours, every 6 hours to get painkillers. I took a Vicodin to just take a shower. just to be able to go into the car to go see my doctor at the appointment. And my poor son saw me. He’s like, You look like you were attacked by a tiger. Like I was just just wounded walking around my little T-Rex arms I did manage to watch most of Grey’s Anatomy during that whole time.

Kiona 1:09:51
That’s a bonus.

Mariela 1:09:53
Because I had like a whole month. I’m like, I guess I could call it a perk I have to deal with, you know, newborn sleepless.

Kiona 1:10:00
Right.

Mariela 1:10:01
Mo.

Kiona 1:10:02
You are dealing with so many other things.

Mariela 1:10:05
I know. Yeah, but, I mean, I got to, like, binge watch TV.

Kiona 1:10:09
Yeah. Yeah, that’s true.

Mariela 1:10:11
And people brought me food.

Kiona 1:10:13
Yeah. Oh. See, that’s why it’s so important to have that village surrounding you, though, because I can’t even imagine. How that would look if they weren’t there.

Mariela 1:10:24
I know. I mean, we’re Hispanic, so we’re very close knit family. I always tell people, it’s like, that’s one of the benefits. You’re never alone. That’s also want to drawbacks. You’re never alone. And so, you know, they they were just ready to help my sister, my brother. they all did what they could. And I had even mentioned to you about all the gifts I got during the baby shower. I want you to think about this twin girls. I was gifted enough diapers. I didn’t have to buy a single diaper till the girls were 11 months old.

Kiona 1:10:53
Wow.

Mariela 1:10:54
I did not have to buy a single wipe until the girls were two years old.

They gifted me my crib my mattress for the crib. I was given formula and. I also qualified for WIC. So that helped a lot with the formula. But my sister gave me formula boxes and then my OBGYN and her nurses called me and they’re like, Hey, would you do you want some formula? I was like, Yeah. And they gave me 70 cans of sample formula.

Kiona 1:11:23
Wow.

Mariela 1:11:24
I was so amazed. I was like, wow, people like me.

Kiona 1:11:28
People

Mariela 1:11:29
They all.

Kiona 1:11:29
like. Support you.

Mariela 1:11:31
Yeah, they all did their part and it made it so much easier on me not to have to worry about those things.

Kiona 1:11:37
Those two things are the bare necessities.

Mariela 1:11:39
yeah.

Kiona 1:11:40
Right. those two very big things that were given to you. Diapers and formula. those two things right there are huge and absolutely necessary. And of course, like clothes, crib, all of that is necessary, too. But those two things are what will make sure babies stay comfortable.

Mariela 1:12:00
Yeah. And there were things I didn’t have to worry about.

Kiona 1:12:03
Hmm.

Mariela 1:12:04
Espe since, of course, they were born right before the pandemic.

Kiona 1:12:11
Yeah. Okay. Yeah, Because they’re five years old now.

Mariela 1:12:13
Yep, yep, yep, yep, yep, yep. So the the month they turned six months old.

Kiona 1:12:20
That’s when they shut everything down.

Mariela 1:12:22
Yep. But before we get to there. Before we get to that,

because yeah, I had my surgery. I have about our mastectomy. My mother went back to work after a month. I was again watching twins. it was difficult because with the C-section, yes, my cut healed in a month. But really, it takes a lot longer for all that to really heal. And so they’re like, you know, limit your weight to like, okay, these kids who weigh like 14 pounds, I don’t have a choice. So we’re just going to have to ignore that. And I have to pick them up. And we just we went there, went through it By November, I was able to talk to I’m sorry, he label, but she was my radiation doctor. So I went to see her, and because my cancer was aggressive and I was so young, they figured that we needed to do everything from aggressive treatment. So I finished chemo, I finished my bilateral mastectomy, and then I rolled right into my radiation treatments and I had to get microwaved for every weekday, 28 times. That’s. Well, that’s why I call it my wife, because that’s what it is. They aim it and you’re frying your skin. And if you have ever seen radiation wounds. Yeah, it’s. It’s bad. It’s bad. It’s burnt. And I laugh because the doctor at the time was like, Well, do you have anyone to help you? I’m like, We all work. What do you mean?

Kiona 1:13:47
Mm hmm.

Mariela 1:13:47
So it’s like I’m doing radiation and I’m taking care of twins. But then she’d be like, Well, try not to let it get you down. You know, 28 appointments. That could be a lot. I was looking forward to every single one of them. I would hand over my twins, I’d be like, Bless your husband, good luck with them. I would go to my radiologist and have a cup of coffee. I could be by myself.

Kiona 1:14:07
Yeah.

Mariela 1:14:08
But I could talk to adults, you know, after I got microwaved. And then I would sit there and finish my cup of coffee, and then I had to go back home.

So I laugh about that because I’m like, everyone’s like, Oh, you know, but. Well, but it’s it’s adult time by myself. But I have to get every single day.

Kiona 1:14:27
Right? Yeah. Goodness. Yeah, There is always silver lining, right? There’s always some way to see the positive in it. And that was your.

Mariela 1:14:36
That was my positive. A cup of coffee, a break. I talk to adults?

Kiona 1:14:41
Yeah. Which is very important.

Mariela 1:14:44
Important. So I was a little sad when the treatment’s all finished. I rang the bell And that was my, end of treatment. And everyone celebrated. Yay, I did it. I didn’t realize that I would have to deal with that post cancer treatment depression.

Kiona 1:15:03
Hmm.

Mariela 1:15:04
I know. And I’m just like, Holy crap. Because it didn’t feel like I was done. I kept saying, okay, I’m just gonna get through this to get to the end of that. And then I’ll never have to think about cancer again. No, ma’am. I had already gotten cancer before, so I am already high risk. And then the first thing they do after they finish treatment is you get seen every three months by your oncologist and your surgical oncologist, and everyone is touching you and checking on you. And I still had more surgeries to look forward to because they put the implants in. But there are still. That was just what how they landed. You know what? They still have to fix it, make them look nicer at fat grafting to make them look more realistic. Because I could literally I mean, they hollowed it out. It’s. You know, cantaloupe hollow out, everything like that. What’s left is left, and there’s no barrier between the implants and my skin. So they have to graft that to put it in to make that look more normal. Because, I mean, I was sitting there like there’s the back of implant. I could literally see it rippling underneath my skin. So they had to do that. So, I mean, I still had surgeries coming up and I was still seeing the doctor regularly. And I didn’t feel like I was done at all. Everything’s still felt like at any moment cancer’s coming back because you hear about all these, you know, cancer recurrences. you don’t realize until you become a cancer survivor that you’re cancer survivor for life.

Kiona 1:16:23
Right.

Mariela 1:16:24
You’re never done. you’re always at risk. I mean, the only thing that’s going to save you and make you feel better about it is time. So, you know, right now I’m at five year mark or will be at the five year mark in December. And that’s a really great sign. They’re already talking about taking me off of some hormone blockers I have to be on. I chose to get my ovaries removed. In order to avoid any more. Hormones that would Possibly cause my cancer to come back. So I was put immediately into menopause. I had to struggle with. Sorry, I was like this. I keep forgetting information like, Oh, wait.

Kiona 1:16:56
Okay? Yeah.

Mariela 1:16:57
Let’s let’s go back before COVID happened. I had started menopause to. Hot flashes are horrible, by the way. If you’ve never experienced one, they’re horrible. I’m sorry. They’re horrible. Part about menopause, I think.

Kiona 1:17:09
Oh, gosh.

Mariela 1:17:10
Had COVID not happened, I think I would have handled everything a lot better. Because, I mean, I had experience now with my firstborn. I knew what to expect. I knew what to take seriously, what to be more casual about. with COVID, where I normally would start taking the girls out and about, we were stuck at home.

Kiona 1:17:30
Right.

Mariela 1:17:31
And my only outings were to go to the doctor. Then my son had to do distance learning. So I had to take care of that too.

Kiona 1:17:41
Right.

Mariela 1:17:41
And my husband was considered important to keep working, which is great because we need that paycheck. But that just meant I had to deal with everything alone. still. And that was very difficult for our mental health. I felt like I was in a dark room with the twins. As they got older, it did get easier, but then they were also speech delayed because we weren’t around people. Already that’s an issue with twins that the speech like. I don’t know why but.

Kiona 1:18:05
Because they know how to communicate with each other without actually needing to speak yeah.

Mariela 1:18:09
Yeah. Like, well, mom understands us and she talks like I do, so why would I need to talk, right?

Kiona 1:18:15
Hmm.

Mariela 1:18:16
So we had to do speech therapy. And because they were so speechless that they were allowed to start an early public school. So the day they turned three years old. They started like the pre pre-K or whatever. So that was good for them. But then I noticed that. Sarafina, like your mom,heart knows. And I started asking for her to be checked for autism. And then they surprised me. Both girls started reading at three. it turns out that Serafina has hyper alexia. So she started reading before she started talking. Which I’m like That’s cool. Of the last time that she was checked, because when she was three, they told me she was at a first grade reading level.

Kiona 1:18:57
Wow.

Mariela 1:18:58
Wow. That’s what I said. Wow. Wow. That sounds really cool, But I also need you to talk, and please stop pooping in your underwear. They’re both late potty trainers, of course.

Kiona 1:19:09
Yeah. Is there anything that you see with them that you think could have been a cause for you going through chemo throughout pregnancy?

Mariela 1:19:17
Oh, no. Yeah, I know a lot of people say that, and they even wonder because of Sara’s autism, But there’s more of a genetic link. To her autism. Some of us call it boomer autism. I believe my husband’s father may be on the spectrum. But I mean, they don’t believe in that stuff, so.

Kiona 1:19:33
Right.

Mariela 1:19:34
Yeah. So I just looked at him like. I think that’s where she got it from. And she’s so smart, so I’m not worried too much about her. I just know that she’s on her own path in her own time.

Kiona 1:19:46
Right.

Mariela 1:19:47
She’s so frickin smart, dude. Like. Too smart. She’s one of those kids that figures out a. So you got to be careful. You got to be on top of her.

Kiona 1:19:54
Hmm. Hmm. Hmm hmm. Is there anything else specific that you think that you’re wanting to mention? That we haven’t talked about already.

Mariela 1:20:03
Just a quick touch on the fact, because, I mean, obviously, I’m very close to my brother. I love my sister, but just I don’t know why me and my brother. Just understand each other. So we’ve always been a little closer. And I don’t want to make it sound like my husband isn’t one of my confidants.

And it sucks too, because This has also been very hard on him, obviously. And to be a caretaker. People take it for granted because it’s not like you can just decide I’m tired any day off. Especially in his situation. So I felt for him a lot. Watching him have to always be the one on, have to always take care of the kids. we’re going on like 18 years of marriage, I think 17. And there has been so much exponential growth that we did in the short amount of marriage time. Because we’ve gone through the parents of multiples, which are pretty difficult. Breast cancer, spo, that’s another one that’s difficult. Usually has a high divorce rate. And then we went through COVID together, you know, and I was in a bad place. Being stuck scared with everything going on. So I just wanted to make sure to highlight the fact that he was a badass.

Kiona 1:21:12
Yeah.

Mariela 1:21:13
I was able to laugh with my brother, but I was able to cry with my husband. You know what I mean?

Kiona 1:21:18
Mm hmm.

Mariela 1:21:19
The only safe person I had for that because I always felt like I had to be such a strong person for my family. And I want to make sure to give him the credit for that. Although he didn’t get a tattoo with my name, you know, so.

Kiona 1:21:33
Right.

Mariela 1:21:33
How committed

Kiona 1:21:34
You know.

Mariela 1:21:34
are you? Right.

Kiona 1:21:36
Right? Yeah. No, that is such an incredibly important thing to mention, because being a spouse of someone who has been diagnosed with cancer does have a tremendously high divorce rate. Tremendously high. And you are sitting here telling me that he stuck through it with you. You guys went through it together. You did pregnancy with multiples, you did cancer, you did COVID, you did all of it on top of whatever else was going on in your life, because there was I’m sure there was more. You know, the list just goes on and on. Like, life never stops until it’s the end. And so the fact that you continue to make it through and you guys still have each other, that’s amazing.

Mariela 1:22:22
Yeah, it really is. And I give him a lot of credit for it, because homegirl,

especially now with my diva girls, we hear a lot we’re allowed to handle.

Kiona 1:22:33
I believe it. I believe it. I. Because, I mean, you know, with you sharing your story on the podcast right now, you’re telling us how you are now in the thick of it. There would have been a lot more pain, a lot more anger, a lot more sadness just in your voice because you’re in the thick of it, Right? So the fact that you are here to be able to share your story after the fact with such lightness and such comedy and such passion is incredibly amazing. So I really appreciate you sharing with us today.

Mariela 1:23:08
Oh, no, thank you. Thank you. I just hope that if there’s somebody out there going through anything remotely close to what I did there, it’s possible there’s that. There is a light at the end of the tunnel.

Kiona 1:23:20
Yes, absolutely. Absolutely.

Outro 1:23:23
Before we end this episode, I wanted to be sure to give you the answers to the final three closing questions that I ask everyone. these are Maryellen responses for question number one, which is What is one piece of advice you would give all pregnant people to prepare for labor birth and postpartum. Her answer was to prepare for a labor or a C-section. You need a doctor and medical staff that you trust. it gave her peace when things felt out of control and after birth don’t feel bad asking for space and private time to spend with your baby and your partner. She hated that the first time that she had her in-laws hovering over her the minute after her son was born. She was fresh out of surgery and was needing to try to breastfeed and it was uncomfortable. And she was just trying to be polite. So don’t let people take that away from you. Postpartum is important and take care of yourself and your mental health. And don’t be afraid to ask for medicine. If you feel like you are struggling with anxiety and or depression, be sure to reach out to your village and take advantage of all their help. She thinks that she was expecting too much of herself with the first baby, and it definitely affected her mental health. Question number two is what is one resource that I can share with the listeners on her behalf? She said it doesn’t sound like much, but I got a lot of help from support groups on Facebook. There are so many and you can connect to very specific groups. She was able to join a pregnant with cancer group She said that having so many women to talk to that were on the same journey helped make her experience less scary and seeing all of the chemo babies growing up and being perfect was a big comfort for her. and the final question is, if you could describe your births with one word, what would it be? She said her first birth, she would use the word unprepared because there was so much more that goes into becoming a mother. That was not discussed. And for her second birth, she said a moment because her fight with cancer robbed her of being able to enjoy her pregnancy and her newborn twins. Her treatments didn’t slow down, so neither could she. She had to focus on being sure that she can continue to be a mother to her children.

All right. Birth as we know it. Family. If you have made it this far, you know that this episode was full of so many things. So, Maria La, I want to say thank you so much for sharing your stories with us. And you refer to your husband at the end of this episode as a badass. And I just want you to know that you are also a badass. And Zacharias, Serafina and Magdalena are so, so lucky to have you as their mom. Now, if you enjoyed this episode, I highly suggest that you go check out her webpage at

birthasweknowitpodcast. com/78 because she’s sent me the pictures of her during her baby shower as well as the photo that she sent her brother, where she said that she looked like Voldemort while holding graham crackers in her mouth. And in addition to those two photos, she has amazing photos of her throughout her pregnancy. So definitely go check that out. And if you want to hear another story about a multiple birth, you can listen to episode 64 with Melissa. Melissa talks about her three births as well and its similar pattern of a singleton and then twins. And if you want to be even more involved and part of the birth as you know it podcast community, you can head over to

birthasweknowitpodcast. com/community and become part of the Facebook page. We asked an amazing question every single Friday to get the conversations flowing. So I would love to see you there and read your answers to those questions. All right, family, thank you so much for tuning into this episode today. And I will talk to you later. Bye for now.

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