Description:
Mackenzie was saddened when she had to get an induction with her first son Jack due to low amniotic fluid levels, but was very surprised when the induction went faster than anyone had expected. Her first birth nspired her to birth with midwives for her second son Teddy. The way that birth unfolded was more than she could have ever imagined.
Disclaimer: This podcast is intended for educational purposes only with no intention of giving or replacing any medical advice. I, Kiona Nessenbaum, am not a licensed medical professional. All advice that is given on the podcast is from the personal experience of the storytellers. All medical or health-related questions should be directed to your licensed provider.
Hear what it was like for Anni to birth in Japan due to her husband being stationed there.
54 Anni Denzel-2 Births-Termination-Cesarean-VBAC-Military Birth Talk
Resources:
- Perinatal Support of Washington: https://perinatalsupport.org/
- Postpartum Support International: https://www.postpartum.net
- The Miles Circuit: http://www.milescircuit.com/
- The Positive Birth Company: https://thepositivebirthcompany.com/
Definitions:
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Transcription of Episode 81:
Intro 0:08
Welcome to Birth As We Know It, a podcast that is dedicated to recognizing the many different ways that birth unfolds. I am your host, Kiona Nessenbaum. I have experienced birth as a doula, a student midwife, a birth assistant, and as a mother of three amazing children of my own. Af attending over 140 births, I’ve realized that each birth experience is truly unique. So make sure you subscribe and join me as we are guided through many different birth experiences through the lens of the storyteller. Please be aware that some of these stories can be triggering to hear. So feel free to pause, take a breath, and come back and listen whenever you’re ready. With that said, let’s prep ourselves to dive deep and get detailed about what really happens in the birth space.
Disclaimer 1:06
As a reminder, this podcast is intended for educational purposes only and has no intention of giving or replacing any medical advice. All advice that is given on the podcast is from the personal experiences of the storytellers. All medical or health related questions should be directed to your license provider.
Kiona 1:25
Before we dive into this episode today, I have an exciting announcement. Your girl Kiona Nessenbaum is back in the birth space as a birth doula. So if you are local to the greater Seattle area and in need of some birth doula support, please reach out. I would love to support you as you transition into parenthood. To learn more about this service, you can go to
birthasweknowitpodcast. com/doula. Another service that I’m offering is called Labor Prep From a Doula perspective. Now, this can be done virtually or in person, so it’s also available to those that are not local to the greater Seattle area. What this is, is a two hour info session where you and I connect and talk about the best ways to prep for your labor and to inform you of what your options are. We also touch on how you can cope throughout labor, how partners can support you as you are laboring. And we touch on postpartum. So if you want to learn more about this
birthasweknowitpodcast. com/laborprep. All right, let’s dive into this episode.
Hello everyone, and welcome back to the Birth As We Know It podcast. I am super excited to dive into the birth stories of Mackenzie Hyduke, who is here to talk about her two birth stories of her sons, Teddy and Jack. Jack is the first and Teddy is the second. And Mackenzie also let me know that she is currently pregnant with her third boy. So welcome, Mackenzie.
Mackenzie 2:55
Thank you so much for having me.
Kiona 2:56
You’re so welcome. I’m so excited to dive into this. And just get to figure out all the ins and outs of your birth. let’s just dive right in and talk about the conception process with Jack. What was that like for you guys?
Mackenzie 3:11
we actually conceived him on our first try, which I was not at all expecting to happen. My parents had struggled for years with infertility and with kind of stuff on both of their ends. And so I had grown up hearing about how, like, it took them years to conceive me. They were on the verge of doing IVF and or adopting and then tried for years after me. And I was just like a lucky one that squeaked through. And so I don’t have siblings. I’m an only child. So it’s not like I had sisters that were having kids. This was sort of my narrative for what it was like to conceive. And I had been on birth control for like eight or nine years when we got married. We got married when I was 26 and planned to immediately try to conceive. We dated for four years and had talked a lot about family planning. My husband is in the military and We were not like, Oh, let’s get married so that I can have benefits type. We we both don’t get like so seriously, I followed him and like kind of paid my own way to try to be with him. And, we had so many conversations about what we wanted our marriage to look like before we got married. And we were very thoughtful about kids and had planned for a long time to have kids.And so when we were finally getting married, we were like, There’s no point waiting around. We were very excited. And so I went off birth control probably six months before our wedding and just started kind of tracking my cycle because I had actually not even had a period for eight years I was on a low dose birth control, but it was just the way it interacted with my body and my BMI. I just didn’t get a period. So I hadn’t had a cycle in ages and I figured, let’s give it some time to adjust. And so that was like the first time that I was ever really paying attention to my body and kind of learning about, you know, the length of my cycle, which fortunately was immediately like a clock. And I started noticing like signs of ovulation and stuff like that. so we actually conceived my son the weekend we got married. but I did not expect that to happen at all. Like I said, my narrative was like, okay, this is going to take us at least months, maybe years. so we got back from our honeymoon and had our like first day back at work on a Tuesday. And I was in I was actually I wasn’t really working. I was doing my master’s in social work and I was finishing up a practicum and we were home that night and I hadn’t even missed a period. I was like a few days away for my period, but I just could not. I had had some mild nausea on our honeymoon, and we had done some like very windy driving. And I had blamed it on that. But there was just like this little voice in the back of my head that was like I could not focus on anything but taking a pregnancy test I went into the bathroom, took the test, and then I set a timer. We went back like 3 minutes later and the little it was a digital and the little like clock was still ticking. And I was like crawling out of my skin. And my husband was like, Look, let’s just sleep trying to calm me down. And we went to walk out and I looked back and it said yes. And I was just completely floored. My husband later was like, You looked upset because I was so, so, so, so shocked. I honestly couldn’t believe it. like to be that lucky. I, never took that for granted. We were actually equally this is jumping ahead a little bit, but we were equally as lucky with my second. But then when trying to conceive my third, I actually had two back to back chemical pregnancies before conceiving him. And that was like, I mean, I have friends who have struggled with infertility. Like I have never taken it for granted, but wow, so that makes me look back on the first experience with even more gratitude that that was so easy for us because, that is not usually the case. So yeah, that was kind of how the pregnancy started. We were in Hawaii then. My husband was stationed in Hawaii on the island of Oahu, and both of our families are on the East Coast and this was in 2020. We got married at end of 2019. So he was born July 1st of 2020. this was at, obviously, as everyone will remember, a very interesting time and a very weird time to be pregnant, in my opinion, especially with my first like it really having COVID happened during my first pregnancy really rocked me, especially being so far from family. I had a lot of nausea. I’m not much of a vomiter but 24, seven horrible, horrible, horrible nausea, tons of aversions. I probably grew him on noodles with butter but otherwise, like after week 11, some of that first trimester anxiety about loss. Like all of these unknowns being so new to pregnancy passed more and I was able to really, really start to enjoy it. I loved the second trimester. We were outside all the time being in Hawaii. We were with our friends all the time. We were so excited. We found out, you know, we kept getting healthy, everything healthy. He was a boy. We found out he was a boy, which was so exciting. You know, I’m now about to have my third. When we called my in-laws to tell them that we were having a boy, we were so excited and they were like, That’s not surprising. Your grandfather was one of ten and nine were boys. We were like, okay, so yes, now our house is like full of boys, but we were super, super excited and we went on like a little trip to Kauai in February to explore another island, and that was when we had first started hearing about COVID. And I, like asked my I had an appointment right before we went, and I offhand asked the O. B. Is there any reason that we shouldn’t go? I’m sure all the other moms are asking you about this. And he said, Actually, you’re the first, which made me feel like a total, like anxious loser. I was like, of course, I’m the one worried about this thing that is like, so not an issue. And, you know, then a month later, so we went and we got back and it was a huge shock. my baby shower. I was going to fly back home. I’m from Maryland originally and I was going to fly back home to have a baby shower and see my family. And that was scheduled for like March 28th. And March 25th was the day like I was supposed to fly on the 24th. It was kind of crazy. I think the 25th was the day everything shut down and I had to, like, make a judgment call on the weekend beforehand, like, am I going or not? And I, I emailed all these people. I was like, I’m not going to be able to come. And this was my really only plan to see my family during my pregnancy. And then just generally not became really like a defining thing about this pregnancy. It was very isolating, the fear of not knowing at the beginning what like the risks really were, what the risks were to a baby. Hearing all the stories in March and April of like dads not being allowed in the delivery room. That was honestly, I felt like the baby’s going to be okay. Like we we were isolated. I felt like my baby’s going to be fine. I’m going to be fine. I was really worried that I wasn’t going to be able to have my husband with me. And I really think that that whole experience ended up really affecting my postpartum experience. I think that it was a huge contributor. I ended up having some postpartum depression like immediately when he was born. And I think that the isolation and all of the worry and stress at a time when you’re already kind of figuring all of this out for the first time was incredibly difficult. So that was really a pretty significant factor in that pregnancy. And fortunately, by July, I knew I would have my husband. I was not nervous about that. I don’t know if I would have considered having a doula. I was not as into birth as I became after that birth before I sort of went through it for the first time. So I was just with an OB. I was automatically going to be in a hospital. I actually loved my OB, but I didn’t really think all that much about my options. I was sort of curious about no epidural but didn’t do any preparation. I was like, Maybe I’ll be tough, which has so little to do with it, you know? the pregnancy was honestly very textbook, very easy physically until I was about 38 weeks. And I had heard a birth story. I listened to a bunch just to kind of get in a positive mindset. And I had heard a birth story where she was induced for low fluid, the week that I had this appointment, and I don’t know why I asked him. I was like, What is my fluid look like? Like they were just doing a little scan and I was like, What is my flow would look like? And it was unusually low. I don’t know if it was some kind of intuition. It’s super weird. And it was if anybody knows anything about fluid, it was at an eight, which is like generally the cutoff for when a typical O.B. will say we should think about induction is at like a five and it was at an eight which for 38 weeks is low. To give a reference point, I had a fluid scan with my second because of this history at 38 plus zero at the exact same time. And it was a 14 like a 14 AFFI or AQI or whatever the acronym is. So they said, look, there’s no problem right now. Maybe I’ll go into labor spontaneously, but we’re just going to pay a little extra attention. So I started going twice a week rather than once, and it continued to dip. And I had him sweep me a few times because I had done enough research and preparation to know that I did not want to be induced then I felt like I was kind of on a clock and I was very nervous about, am I going to go into labor in the last few weeks where, I mean, I went I was induced at 39 plus three, so it wasn’t even last few weeks, but that last week and a half felt like a few weeks. It was horrible. Ever single day I would wake up. I ended up having prodromal labor for like a week with contractions, 5 minutes apart. But they were very insignificant. Fortunately, I never went to the hospital, and I got turned away because at first I took them very seriously. But they were absolutely nothing. I called my OB and he was like, Look, I can hear talking to you that you’re totally fine. You want to come when you need help. Basically was the idea that he was, you know, when you have to really focus and you are your entire body is like occupied by every single contraction. So he was very helpful. So I had like a few sweeps, and by the time I got to 39 plus three, I had one of my appointments and I went in and had my NST, which I was also doing just to make sure the baby was happy. And he was always totally happy. He was a trooper, champ every time. And then I would have the fluid scan after. And I knew at that point like what numbers to look for because I had watched them scan my fluid. And as soon as I saw the screen, I was like, there is no And I think like the total number was like a two or less than a two, and it had dropped dramatically from three days prior. And I had been like trying to hydrate so hard. We lived in a house on the North Shore with no air conditioning. I was like guzzling water and just sitting all day trying to hydrate as much as I could and I saw the calculation on the screen. And I knew when he turned around and he was like, you’re going to meet your baby today. And I it’s going to make me emotional Now. I immediately because I’m, you know, 15 weeks pregnant, everything makes me emotional. I immediately started crying I had established such a wonderful relationship with this. O.B. This man is amazing. His name is Dr. Foley. For anyone who’s in Hawaii, he’s incredible. I mean,truly a gem of an OB. we had developed such an amazing rapport. And I was, like, telling him about my feelings. He’s like a midwife, like he is the only OB in his practice. And he sees you for so long that he’s like always late to the next appointment and he delivers all of the babies. And I was telling him I was like, I am half so excited and so relieved that this like excruciating wait for what was going to be an induction is over. And am like, so nervous and so disappointed that I have to be induced. And he gave me one last like giant sweep. He was like really trying to help me out. He was like, Let’s give you as much as we can. I went home to get my husband we drove back down to the hospital I checked in and around noon and I was like. 2 to 3 centimeters dilated and 80% effaced. And I had been having, you know, these prodromal contractions, but they were nothing that I could feel. So they were showing up on the monitor. Obviously, this was like a really good place to start an induction. I was glad that this prodromal labor and the sweeps had at least on something. And My O.B. showed up at like 530 in the afternoon. And so I had just kind of been sitting there and he talked over the plan with me, which was to start me at a 2 of Pitocin and then go up every half hour that I was not in established labor until I was in established labor by like a factor of two. I don’t know what the measurement is for Pitocin, so they stuck the needle in my arm at 545 and got me going and I was like, Oh my God, can I have some food? And the hospital policy was no food during an induction, but I had been sitting there for like 5 hours waiting. And he again, Gem of a Man was like, Absolutely. And the nurse kind of looked at him askance, like, I think she was like judging him because he was probably violating hospital policy. He was like, Ye, order her a dinner, eat it quickly. You’re going to be fine. He was amazing. And so I did. I like, threw down this meal. They started me at 545. My husband went to get himself dinner down in, like, the cafeteria. And I was sitting up alone in the bed, like fooling around on my phone reading something. And at 715, my contractions had like just kind of started to pick up, like I could just feel them. I was at a six at this point. They had gone up to a four. After like half an hour, then they had gone up to a six. And I had started to have more substantial contractions and I could feel them. And so they were like, okay, we’re going to hold here. And I heard this huge crack because the room was totally quiet and I felt this like pop deep inside my body. And I immediately knew it was my water breaking. But of course there was like no water. So nothing gushed out of me. But I was like, I think that was my water.I hope that was my water. And so I kind of stood up, went to the bathroom and when I was standing at the sink washing my hands,I started to like drip. It was drops. I mean, there was like nothing there, just these little drops of light pink fluid. And so I frantically texted my husband, which honestly is funny because, usually you would think there was no rush. Like when my OB was leaving the room, he said, Prepare yourself for 36 hours. I was like, We’re going to be here for a long time, right? And he said, Yeah, at least 24. Think 36. Get some rest. Relax. This is almost always a long process. With the first time mom. And so I was like all excited. I was frantically texting my husband and turns out for a reason because I was not the typical first time mom induction after my water broke and at the sixth and Pitocin were like an hour and a half in my body just went like completely insane on the pitocin. I was kind of trying to cope. I had like, read some about breathing, but I hadn’t practiced anything. I was trying to get into all of these different positions to try to alleviate the intensity. Now that I have had a spontaneous, unmedicated labor with my second spoiler alert. these contractions were literally unlike anything that I felt ever with my second. And I mean, this wasn’t even a high level of pitocin like I cannot imagine, you know, when women talk about getting up to like 20 something and their body finally kicks in, like the level of intensity that that must put on the body. This was so overwhelming by the time I really kind of lose track of time. And here I was trying to cope. I was really unable to cope. I was like yelling, just like yelling, Fuck during every contraction. Like I was so in over my head my husband would try to touch me. But, we didn’t have a duel like we had read about stuff, but he hadn’t had anyone show him how to do anything, so he would like, touch me in the wrong way on my arm during a contraction, just trying to do anything to help me. And I would like slap at him because I was so overwhelmed. And finally we got to I clocked in on the on the time and the clock again at like 10:00 in the evening. So almost 3 hours had passed. my contractions were really extreme.I don’t know exactly how long they had been like this, but at this point they were a minute to a minute and a half apart, and they were lasting like 50 to 60 seconds. So for some of them, I was literally getting no break. Like they would dissipate. And then the only thing I can liken it to is getting hit by a train. Like people will ask, what does a contraction feel like? And this is not at all how I would describe my second birth, but there was no wave like quality to these. It was like the second the contraction hit to the time that it left my body. It was like a train hitting my entire body. I felt like I was like writhing. I felt like it was all over my whole body and I asked the nurse when she came to check on me, like I wasn’t timing them. I asked her how far apart it is and how frequent, like how frequent, how long. And she told me and I was like, that’s transition. Like, I know I’m not in transition. I’m a first time mom and I’ve been in labor for only a couple hours and I asked her to check me and I was like, I’m going to get the epidural. And I just knew. And she said I was a 4 to a 5. And so I had made like two centimeters worth of progress. And I was like, There is absolutely no way that I can handle this. I told my husband to like, try to push me to not get an epidural. And I was like, no, no, this is not what I was expecting. This is not what I was told to expect. This is not what I read about. I am not doing this. fortunately, the epidural came really fast. The anesthesiologist was like came in with a boom box, like blaring music. It was the most bizarre. He was a guy, but like, you must deliver epidurals all the time. He came in, he turned on all the lights. There was like really intense pop music literally blaring out of his stereo. It was crazy. It was it was like, horrible. It was like the opposite of what you want in labor.
It was nuts. he was giving me the epidural. And it was actually really funny because he clearly thought I didn’t even feel the needle because I was having contractions back to back and I was trying to hold still and I was holding on to my nurse. I probably like broke her arms. I was holding on to her and just yelling fuck during the interaction. And he was like, Yeah, I’m sorry. And I said, No, it’s a contraction. I was like, Shut up. Like, your tiny epidural needle is inconsequential compared to this contraction and your music is horrible. I didn’t say any of this, but this is what I was feeling. But fortunately it kicked in really fast and
unfortunately it only worked well for about, I want to say, 10 to 15 minutes. It like settled in after about five. It was beautiful. I mean, the relief was like almost instantaneous. And then it started to wear off on one side and then it was like really one sided and kind of started to wear off altogether. And when they would turn me to try to kind of like shift it into the side where it wasn’t as effective, my baby would have deceleration. And so they were like, okay, we have to put you on the other side that already has all of the epidural. So that was kind of the beginning of the weirdness. And then a lot kind of happened very, very fast. I got that epidural around 1045 and very quickly I noticed that it wasn’t really working right. And I knew that sometimes, like, women will have to have an epidural replaced. And I was like, you know, I know what it was supposed to feel like because it felt like that at the start. And at the same time, my son started having deceleration with every contraction just all the time. And at the same time, after a little while, I started to feel a lot of pressure between my legs and My nurse had told me, When you feel a bowling ball between your legs, call us. And so I was like half an hour had passed. Mind you, it was like 11 p.m., half an hour had passed. And so I was like, There is no way, but I’m feeling what I’m feeling. And my kid is having all these deceleration and my epidural isn’t working. So I was upset about three things and I called the nurse and minus was on a lunch break. And so another nurse came in and my experience with her was truly horrible and like really honestly defined a lot of how I kind of changed and reframed what I wanted to do for my next birth. she was basically like, the dislocations are fine. We see them on the monitor. But she didn’t explain to me why they were fine and I was not in a mental state where I could say, I need you to explain to me why they’re okay. Like I’m the type of person that likes details I wasn’t mentally there. And so she just kind of dismissed that and I was like, okay, well, there’s this other thing. My epidural isn’t really working. I would like it if anesthesiology she can come back. And she was like, okay, But then she never did anything about it. Super weird. They never came back. And then I said, you know, I can feel a lot and I can feel a bowling ball between my legs. Would you check me, please? And she was like, No, we checked you half an hour ago. You’re a first time mom and you’re being induced. It’s a risk of infection. And, you know, I appreciate that. That’s right. That my water was broken and that every time you checked someone and I had already been checked once. And she’s probably thinking this first time Mom doesn’t know anything about labor. And so she was just like, really, really, really just thoroughly dismissive of everything. Anesthesiology never came, and I just, like my husband and I were furiously trying to research deceleration. And my husband, who’s actually he’s a physician, so he’s a psychiatrist, but he’s a physician. And he was reading about them and he was validating that what he was reading was what they sounded like as being like the okay kind. I think it’s like they were variable. They were, yo know, it was it was the kind that was okay, like some babies have that, but it was so disturbing to me. Listening to his heart slowed down every time, I was so distressed. so we get another half an hour in and I said to my husband, Look, my epidural is so bad, I have to have it replaced. You need to go into the hall, you need to get her and you need to tell her that anesthesiology needs to come now because like I’m absolutely freaking out. And so he goes into the hall and he, like, sticks his head out and my O.B. is there and my O.B. is usually not. He actually came to deliver a fourth time mom who was next door to me, and he had checked in about me at the nurses station and they told him everything. And he came into the room and he was like, Hi, I’ve heard everything. Let me check you. And immediately got down there and said, Yeah, you’re complete. I can feel your baby’s head. And then he turned to the nurse who had been so dismissive, and he was like, You know better. And it was honestly like he wasn’t he didn’t yell at her. He didn’t kick her out, but he was like, you know better than to, like, completely dismiss what this mom is saying with everything that she’s telling you. he was clearly mad at her for it. Like he he came in. He could tell that I was upset. And it was one of the most empowering moments of my birth, which was not very empowering. But he kind of gave some of that back to me. And so he was like, You’re ready to go? Let’s do a practice push my regular nurse came back from her break, which again was an hour long. So, like all of this had happened, I had progressed based on what I had been feeling, which hadn’t changed in that half hour. I had progressed from like four and a half centimeters to a ten in like half an hour. And that was why there were all of these intense sounds for my baby. And I was feeling all this stuff. And obviously no one had expected that. But like, here we were. My nurse came back and I then started pushing and I ended up having him. 40 minutes later, it was not a terribly long pushing experience. My epidural was never fixed, so I felt a lot of it. Now that I’ve had an unmedicated birth, I would say probably like I felt 40% of it there was another nurse, another nurse who’d come in to deal with the baby afterward, who is telling me, Stop pushing with your face. Don’t push with your face. You’re wasting all of your energy, pushing with your face, like during a contraction. And they were telling me to hold my breath and she was like my pushing coach. And she kept like criticizing my face and I hated it so much. so I was like, so focused on controlling my face and holding my breath. And honestly, in the last there were like three contractions at the very end. I just started completely ignoring her, and I just started screaming and, like, roaring as loud as I could, like just what had basically been trying to come out of me. And he was born like two contractions later. that was another empowering moment because it was like, Oh, I finally listened to my instincts, which were to yell and be loud and just let some of it come out that way. That really gave my body the power to get him out. he was £6, 15 ounces. I had a small second degree tear that needed to be stitched this was also excruciating like they gave me a shot of lidocaine,
excruciating. I was, like, sobbing while he was stitching me and I was holding my baby. And honestly, I hate to say this, but like, I did not feel the way that I expected to feel. The best word for it was like incredibly numb. I was very worried about him crying. I was like, Why isn’t he crying?I mean, it took him like 30 seconds. He was totally fine. I was so completely numb. I was like, shocked. I was just like, relieved that he was there and that it was over. I didn’t feel this, like, overwhelming rush of joy. And I hate like, I hate that, especially because I experienced it with my second. Like, I experienced what I kind of expected and I sort of was like I immediately knew that there was something wrong with me. Like and I’m not saying me as a mom, there’s nothing wrong with you if you feel that way. I’m saying I was so attached to this pregnancy and to this baby during the pregnancy that, like I knew that I did not feel right. it took a couple of days for me to kind of be sure, which is not that much time, because like, the baby blues are intense. But I did. I ended up having immediate onset postpartum depression for about 4 to 5 months and I could feel it from the second he came out, I just knew and that was hard. I ended up handling that with therapy. I got a therapist after like a few weeks to a month. When it didn’t pass, my mom ended up booking a flight to visit and I nursed him exclusively for a year, and I have so many friends who, like, went on Zoloft while they nursed. And I had had therapy earlier in my life and I was like, I know that this works for me. I’m going to try this first. And so that was my preference. it worked great. I actually I felt a lot better after about 4 to 5 months. So 4 to 5 months postpartum, I kind of started to see the light a little bit. And honestly, nursing was really pretty good. The beginning was really, really, really hard. You know, they always tell you, like if you have any pain, You have to work on the latch. And his latch was like, p. And I saw probably three lactation consultants because I was like, I do not know why I am in so much pain. My left nipple was like bleeding and cracked. I was like, I know that this is not. And it turns out he just had like a really weak tongue and he was like, coming at me. finally the last one gave us some exercises to do, and after three weeks it got a lot better. that’s actually one of the things that I am most proud of. I had told myself nursing was really important to me. I was like, this is something very, very important to me and I am committed to it. And I think that I held on to it more after the birth because the birth went so different than what I thought. Like, I never thought that a nurse would be so rude. I honestly I didn’t think it would go so fast, like, Oh, I never even said so. He was born at 115. My whole induction was 7 hours. I was shocked by that. I was shocked by the epidural not working. There was so much of it that was like unexpected to me that I was like, I am going to nurse and we did. And after a few weeks it became this, like, really beautiful thing. I had told myself, I’m going to stick with it for six weeks no matter what, no matter how bad it is, no matter what happens. Everyone says six weeks and it got better after about four. after the postpartum depression cleared up, I had transitioned to being a stay at home mom. I had a lot of wonderful time with my baby and we were able to nurse for like 14, 15 months. I plan to wean him around a year. And then my husband got stationed in Washington State when he was 13 months. And so I kind of kept going to let him, have some extra comfort during a big change. And then we started to try for my second when he was 18 months. And like I said earlier, we conceived him immediately.
Kiona 34:57
Before we get into your second one. there’s a couple of things that I one of
Mackenzie 35:02
Yes, absolutely.
Kiona 35:03
things that pops out to me is that. Anesthesiologist blaring music. I have never heard that before. Like, that is so mind boggling to me to just come in and change the environment of someone who’s laboring and then for your epidural to not even work. As it should. And the next thing that I wanted to touch on was the nurse that you had. Right. So, like, the one that wasn’t actually your nurse, but the one that was filling in for your nurse when she was on break. The attitude that that nurse had is actually not as uncommon as you would hope. Right. And I think
Mackenzie 35:37
Right.
Kiona 35:38
that one thing that we have to remember is I’m not trying to invalidate the fact that it was a rude experience, but like, she’s human, too, right? And so she could
Mackenzie 35:45
Absolutely.
Kiona 35:45
have had a really tough day. But I absolutely love how your OB kind of put her in her place and said, you know, better. listen. Right. Like, it’s so hard. And I feel like when nurses end up in that state of mind too often and they kind of bring in this kind of like hierarchal energy of like, I know better, I know more than you. It totally takes away the agency that a person has of their own body and their
Mackenzie 36:10
Yes.
Kiona 36:10
intuition and the trust that they have in their own body. Like, I feel like that is so important. And nurses get proved wrong so much when they say, Oh, no, no, no, oh no, no, no, it’s not happening. And then they’re over here about to catch a baby because the doctor’s not around. So
Mackenzie 36:27
Yes.
Kiona 36:27
yeah, just wanted to say I’m sorry that you had that experience.
Mackenzie 36:31
Thank you so much. Yes. I have actually, like sometimes when I think back on it, I’m like, Oh, I feel bad for her.
Kiona 36:37
Mm
Mackenzie 36:38
Like, she probably did. She probably had a horrible day. She probably had a really long shift. You know, like, people are human,
Kiona 36:45
hmm.
Mackenzie 36:45
like you said. And so she is she’s like this figure in my story.
Kiona 36:50
Mm.
Mackenzie 36:51
And honestly, in a way, I am actually grateful to her and grateful for that experience because, like you said, that was so that so intensely, like, invalidated my trust in myself and was such a dismissive, weird. It just felt so wrong to me. And when I ended up going to have my second, I was like, I am doing things so differently and I am going into this so differently. So she ended up actually being like, I think if I had had just like a standard hospital birth where like my epidural worked, she was friendlier, she was less dismissive, she checked me. I don’t know that I would have had the experience that I did with my second, which was like such a gift because I was so desperate to have something different and I was so committed to have something different that I was like, I’m doing everything differently. And I went in with such a different mindset that has been so empowering, not only in terms of my birth experiences and my relationship with birth and my body, but like myself as a mom, like way bigger mom stuff. so it’s funny. She’s like she’s like the villain in my story. But really, it’s so much more complicated than that. And there’s a way that I’m really grateful for her.
Kiona 38:15
Mm hmm. Yeah, I think that is also a really great thing to pay attention to. There is. I’ve said this many times before on the podcast as well the way that you’re cared for when you’re in such a vulnerable position. And life changing time is what you remember most
Mackenzie 38:30
Yes.
Kiona 38:30
then, like the actual feelings of your body. Like, yes, you still remember what you feel in your body, I don’t know about you. But many people that have like burst of baby tend to forget the pain that’s associated with that. It’s
Mackenzie 38:42
Yes.
Kiona 38:42
more of like the emotions that you’re feeling and how you’re being cared for at the time, how people are speaking to you. Like the other nurse that was like, fix your face when you were pushing. You know, I understand why she was saying that from a birth worker mindset of like, when people tense their face, it tends to like, lead to closure in their body elsewhere. But you could see it in a different way. It doesn’t need to be like, don’t push with your face. You know, you’d be like, just relax your eyebrows a little bit, take some deep breaths. But then also you followed up with saying you roared your baby out, which is what some people just need. Some people feel so much more power and energy and like confidence when they, work with their body and get into that super primal state of just, oh, you know. So
Mackenzie 39:29
Yes.
Kiona 39:30
I appreciate that opposite viewpoint of that as well.
Mackenzie 39:34
Yes. And that did end up being like with my second. I just like, yelled the whole time and it was totally like it felt so much better. You know, that with the anesthesiologist and the nurse and that, like, the way they communicated, was just really not, conducive to, you know, that peaceful physiological birth experience. And yeah, the blaring music. But yes, so with my second we tried to conceive him at 18 months and we’re immediately pregnant again. And I felt it around like five days. Nauseated. Weird nipples.
Kiona 40:14
hmm. Mm hmm.
Mackenzie 40:16
Sorry. TMI.
Kiona 40:17
No TMI, no such thing.
Mackenzie 40:19
Yeah, I know. I always say it’s like once you’ve given birth, kind of goes out the window. Yeah, The fridge smelled like a dead body. I, like, wanted to eat mayonnaise and lemon. It was like, immediately my body was like, Oh, we’ve done this before. We’re ready. And I took, like, days of tests. It was so different than my first experience. I started testing it like, eight days, and it took until like 12, I think, for me to finally get a positive. And so I was like starting to doubt myself, you know? But yes, I was pregnant. We were super excited again, super grateful. my pregnancy with him was again really kind of textbook great, except for the first trimester. B that’s also pretty textbook. I had basically identical morning sickness and this time I took I did like the unison sex thing and it helped some. Honestly, I never barfed in pregnancy, which was the big difference. It was, of course, harder with a toddler. And my first my sweet, beautiful first boy is like really intense. And he always has been. He was actually a very chilled baby, but a very intense toddler and is still to this day, like he has more personality packed into his little four and a half year old body than I feel like ten adults typically do. He is a total loon and is like such a joy and is so crazy. And so I was like, he really kept me on my toes for that pregnancy. rig from the very beginning, my preparation was very different. I actually interviewed a doula and hired her before we even conceived.
Kiona 41:59
mm
Mackenzie 41:59
I was like, You know what? I’m going to do this when I’m not sick. I’m going to look around. I got some recommendations and met with her and it was just like instant soul connection. It was like, This is the one, I love her. And so I got with her really early on and also had investigated where do I want to give birth before we even conceived? they had this amazing thing there, which was a it’s at St Joe’s in Tacoma, Washingto. So like I said, we had moved. So this is in Washington’s state and Tacoma. It’s like 40 minutes south of Seattle. And they have a hospital called St. Joe’s that has a birth center that is attached and affiliated, but it is an entirely separate building in addition to their labor and delivery ward. And at the natural birth center you like there are no epidurals. It is all midwives, it is all nurses, but you are down like a skyway. 5 minutes to a C-section, or if you want to transfer. But it doesn’t look like a hospital room. Like they have a queen bed, they do votive. And so I thought to myself, like, I know the statistics on how safe, home, birth and unattached birth centers are, but just my personality, like I would not be able to relax. I am too anxious and to feel safe like I wanted that medical nearby, And so I thought this is the best of both worlds. I will feel safe in many different ways for many different reasons. And I was really adamant about avoiding induction and I was also like very intentional about kind of mentally setting my due date at 41 weeks. I was like, those last few days, we’re not doing that again. I was a wreck. I was miserable. I learned a lot more about physiological birth. I learned a lot more about preparation, how important your mental state is. I took the positive birth companies hypnobirthing course. I’m not like a meditator, so I didn’t think that I would like it, but I loved it. I practice their recommended breathing strategy, which is, you know, in the nose for a slow four and then out the mouth for a slow I think it’s actually out the nose for a slow eight. But that was not me. Turns out that when I’m like, really left to my own devices, I’m incredibly loud. The whole time. So there’s like a lot of moaning and a lot of yelling. I of course, had my doula and so I shared with them, you know, my fluid history. And they wanted to scan me. They were they were great, the midwives were great. They were like, there’s no reason to suspect that this is going to be this is not really woman specific, this is pregnancy specific. But they said, just in case, we’ll scan you. And like I said before, it was great. They scan me at 38, it was at a 14, which is like right smack in the median of where it usually is. And so that was like enormously reassuring. And I started having prodromal labor. I didn’t get swept or anything before this. I didn’t have them check my cervix. I was very like, we’re got we’re going to we’re going to be here forever. It’s going to happen when it happens and it’s going to be great. And so I started having prodromal labor at 38 plus six, and I had that for just shy of two weeks. And fortunately they were like, I know prodromal labor, like keep some women up. And it’s like really significant. I was I never had like I was able to sleep through it. They were, but they were 3 to 5 minutes apart for two weeks straight. Like I would occasionally get an hour or a couple hours off, but it was wild. And honestly, thank God that I had such a focused mindset and that I had done so much mental work from the beginning because I just didn’t take it seriously. I was like, Whatever this is here, I’ve done this before. This doesn’t mean anything. And like, this is just work ahead of time, you know, that my body’s doing and I did like some mild circuit, but I was not worried about it. And I went in at 40 plus two for my 40 week appointment. And at that point, I had already had such an irritable uterus. I was like, Let’s check where I am. And I was interested in a sweep because I knew some research on being more effective after the 40 week mark. So I was like, I’m already having all these contractions. Why not? I went in and she checked me I was 3 to 4 centimeters and 70% effaced. And I said, okay, will you do a sweep and she gave me a good sweep. And it was really uncomfortable, I think more uncomfortable than any that I had had with my first son. And I was, you know, less dilated and I don’t know if that was it or if she just like, had the magic touch. I went home and then I ended up that was 40 plus two and I ended up going into labor a little over 24 hours later at 40 plus three at night. And to backtrack a little. I was very nervous about like giving birth in the car because of how fast my first was specifically being an induction. I was like 7 hours and kind of everybody was like, you know, really pay attention to your body. Like when you start to feel stuff that is legit. You know, I was partly nervous because I felt like I’m going to be waiting for Pitocin contractions. I’ve never felt a normal contraction and, my doula said, you might never feel those. And I didn’t. I was just like really kind of on alert. I didn’t want to have him in the car. My husband delivered a few babies in medical school,but like, I was going for, like, a really peaceful experience, not car birth. So at 40 plus three. I woke up just, like, demoralized. I was like really low. It was the only it was the first day that I was like, Oh, can my body do this? Can my body even go into spontaneous labor? I started to doubt myself and I texted my do a lot. And she told me later she didn’t tell me at the time because she’s smart, that she was like, It’s happening today. She was like, I knew as soon as you texted me that you were like, I was despondent. I was like, super dramatic. She was like, it’s time. And later that morning I had a bloody show and I didn’t take that all that seriously because I had had so many sweeps with my first that like I was used to seeing some blood, but she said she acknowledged she was like, I would expect out more the day of not the next day. And I had some throughout the day and I was honestly just kind of weird. Like I continue to have prodromal labor, but like I wanted to be on the floor I was paying so much attention to my instincts this time trying to really be in touch with my body it was just such a different experience, like I was taking in what was happening but I wasn’t taking any of it too seriously and I was just kind of observing it and letting it go. And that night I put my little guy Jack to bed and my husband had made Chia Pino for dinner. I don’t know if your listeners know what that is, but it’s like a tomato based fish stew. And my mom was in town, My mom had gotten to town. She was like 100% remote. So she just flew out and she was going to be there to be ready. And he made this for us. And I was like, something I must have had some intuition. I was like, I’m not barfing that up tonight. I’m sorry. Like, I hadn’t refused a single meal, but I was like, I cannot barf that up in transition. And so I had scrambled eggs and toast and I was like, I love you. Apologies. And I sort of thought I was crazy because I, like, I hadn’t done anything like that. I hadn’t, like, anticipated anything but my doula said after dinner she was like, take an Epsom salt bath. I took one a 20 minute-er and she said, If you still have contractions during it, like maybe this is more legit. And I had four, so they were 5 minutes apart during the bath. And she said, you know, go to sleep Get as much rest as you can. I think it’s probably happening tonight. And I did. It took me a little while to wind down. I probably went to bed at ten and contractions woke me up at 1130 and they were 3 to 4 minutes apart. I was fine like I didn’t even really need to breathe through them at the beginning, but they were. Clearly more powerful than the ones that I had
experienced through prodromal labor. And I was shaking violently, which is something that happened after I had my first not during. But I, I just knew I was like, okay, this is the real deal. And I called the birth center so soon because of the speed of my first labour being an induction. And they said go to sleep for another half hour, see if you can rest some more. Call us back. Let us know how you’re doing, because I could talk through them all. so I went back to bed I timed them I was at this point having to breathe through them. But I got through like an hour. I hadn’t even realised how much time was passing and I couldn’t fall asleep. And they were 3 minutes apart and I could still talk through them and I was fine and I hadn’t woken up my husband, but I was continuing to shake and so I called back and they said, Come in in half an hour. She was like, We know your history. And I said, You know what? I don’t know that I’m going to be able to relax at home I don’t think that I can actually let this happen until I’m there. And I know it’s the real deal, even if I’m still talking to them because I’m shaking so much like my hormones are popping, I’m having tonnes of bloody show. And they said, Just come in, it’s fine. And we got there at 2 a.m. and I had like an eye mask on. It was the middle of the night, but I had like an eye mask on. I was riding in the back and it was so funny. I was like so in tune with my body. I could feel it was only a ten minute drive. I could feel where we were based on the turns of the car. Like my husband said, I’m turning in now. We’re here. And I said, I know. I was like, And I had my first significant contraction. The second he turned into the parking lot, it was like my body knew. It was the first one that I had to vocalise through. It was incredible. Like just the tie between. The mental game and your mental experience and labor was unbelievable to me. Like that feeling of safety that came from being there for my labor to finally really kick off. And I mean, it really did. They they checked me and I was a five in 100% effaced, so there hadn’t been a ton of progress. And I was like, please keep me. And they said, Don’t worry, we’re watching you. We know you’re not going home. And so my doula showed up and they got me into my room at 230 and it was beautiful. There was this big queen bed and votive and a shower and a tub, and they were so lovely. I was like very frenetic. I like, unpacked my bag. I was laughing and joking with them all. I was like my favorite, my lucky labor shirt. I’m eight years sober and my labor shirt is like an IPA shirt because it’s so
Kiona 53:33
Yeah,
Mackenzie 53:33
comfortable. And I was like, This is ridiculous. I’m like six years sober and I’m wearing a beer shirt. And we were like, all laughing. I was like, acting crazy. I was like, so excited. I was so hyped up and my do, like, came into the room and she watched me for a few minutes and she walked over to me and she was like, Babe, you need to calm down. She was like, You are not going to have this baby until you really, like, relax into your body and let this happen. She was like, You’re buzzing. You need to go to the place in your mind where you need to go to let your baby come. And I was like, okay. And I took off my glasses. I like, I can’t see without my glasses. So it’s actually a great labor tool. You can’t see the details around you. You can’t see the clock. You just like go into your own little world. I got on the labor ball and things moved really fast after this. we tried some music which I hated. My doula was so incredible. She was so in tune with me. She was like, You don’t like the song? We’re going to switch to the next one. She could just read my mind. It was unbelievable. And eventually we turned it off. we would do a position. I started on the ball and we would do a position for about half an hour. I would say that was like my tolerance for a position. And then I would say I need a new position and she would give me a new position. And we moved to like side lunges up onto a stool and she put a tons unit on me and she and my husband were doing counter pressure and just constantly offering me ice water, just like sticking it in my face. No one was talking to me. They were just letting me do my thing.
And then I said, I need another position. And she had me get on my hands and knees on the bed, which was like the only thing that provided some relief with my first. And so she was like, This was really helpful to you with your first let’s do this. after that, I asked her, I was like, Tracy, do you think that I can get in the shower now? In the shower? It was sort of like, ah, kryptonite tool. It was like our ace in the hole, whatever, whatever cliche you want to use. It was like, this was the one. I get into the shower when I’m sick, I get into the shower all the time, like just to feel better. And I was like, I know that the shower is going to crush it for me, and I hadn’t been allowed to use it with the first because I had an I.V. and that was the hospital policy. And she said yes. And so I was like, Oh my God, I was I was excited because I felt like, okay, they can hear my sounds changing. so I got in the shower and it seemed like I ended up going through transition there. It was really funny. I was like, So in labor land, I mean, this whole time I had gone into this trance like state where I was. It was so I am so not a math person, but it was like it was all about numbers. I was like obsessed with the numbers of my counting for my breaths. And then my contractions were something like 45 to 50 seconds long because I was like dividing each contraction into three sets of breath. It was like, so weird. Like, I’m so not a math girl, but I was like, The middle set of four in, eight out was the peak. And once I got through the second one, it was like, I’m good. And they were so different than my Pitocin contractions. It was that wave that you hear about of course they were intense. But like to be honest, I did not feel like they were unmanageable, like anything was unmanageable at any point until I got to pushing. My son ended up having a new go fest and that was like
Kiona 57:12
Oh
Mackenzie 57:13
tremendously intense. But I was seriously like, I was just so in the zone. The shower was incredible. It was funny. When I got in, I was like desperately trying to make it hotter, but I was so out of it that I kept making it colder and then, like slapping my head on the wall, like, unable to communicate. They must have been so close together at this point. An my husband, had taken some cues from my doula and he was amazing. Like he was reading my mind and he said, Do you want it hotter? And he made it the perfect temperature and he was he was the one who was in there with me and giving me water. I had made him pack a bathing suit because I was like, This is going to be water friendly. And he was giving me all the water and doing all the counter pressure. And yes, at some point when I was in the shower, I would do my breath in and I was just like bellowing into the tiles, just roaring into the tiles. And I’m not paying attention to the sounds like I’m just it was it was very intense. Like I was up on my toes. Like that thing that you hear people doing, like where they are, like stretching. And I was working on really staying relaxed and then they would pass and I would get this like beautiful break that I never really got with the first. And I would just like, close my eyes and like sit on the floor until the next one came. And eventually one of the midwives came in and she had been listening to me and she asked me, Are you feeling any downward pressure during? And I didn’t answer because I was like just starting a new contraction and I needed to pay attention to it. And so like by the time I got down, she was like already leaving. She was like, Oh, she’s not ready to answer. Like, it’s okay. We’re not going to ask her again. And I started like, screaming, Yes, yes. Like I was so excited because I knew what that meant. we moved to the tub, which I had asked for, and I ended up really not liking the tub, which I was very surprised at. Like the shower was my zone. But once I got out of it, I didn’t think to get back in it and the tub ended up kind of being too hot for me. Like I felt things felt very intense in there, very uncomfortable. It was brighter out of the bathroom, you know, just it wasn’t bright. It was a very dim space. But something about that got me kind of more into my head. And none of this was really negative. It was like still a beautiful time, but this was the only time where I really and I asked her to check on me. Actually, she she kind of tried to resist in a very gentle way because she was like, you know, your body, your body is ready. We can we can hear you. You are ready to push. And I was like, Please, just check me. And indeed I was. He was right there. This was the only time, like the intensity was so much that I had some self-doubt, but like mental work was so strong that like, I had been saying all these affirmations to myself the whole time. Like, my favorite was I am safe, I am calm, I am confident, I’m powerful. Like I would say this to myself throughout the whole thing. But we got in there and I was like totally experiencing some inner self doubt. And so I started just like whispering to myself, I can do this, I can do this, I can do this. And the whole room, it was so sweet, like the midwives and the nurses and my husband, they were all like, Yeah, you can do it. They were like, It was the greatest hype team. They were like, You are doing it. He’s so close, you can do this. And it was so beautiful. And I started to push in there and I just kind of hated it. Like I felt like I couldn’t get any traction in the water. And so I asked to get out and so funny. I think it was partly because I was so tired. I had been so I had had like a half hour of sleep. I was so anti being on my back. I was like, I’m going to try all this other stuff. And I did. And I like kind of could not really hold myself up like I was so tired that I just wanted to lie down. And so I said, I can’t believe I’m saying this, but I want to get on my back and can you hold my legs up? I was like, I cannot hold my legs up myself. And honestly, it turns out like I said, my son had a new knuckle first, so rather than pushing was actually very quick. The whole thing took 20 minutes. It felt like hours So rather than the soft had kind of coming down this malleable head that cones coming down the canal, he had his rock hard knuckles. I was like losing my mind basically from the time I started pushing. And more so when I asked when did my water break? And they were like, I don’t know, probably in the shower. And I had them check and my water was still intact and pushing was so intense that I was like, I looked at my door and I said, This is going to be faster if they pop it right. And she said, Yeah, probably because I felt like I couldn’t get traction. It was this weird, very weird, squishy feeling. And I was like, But it’s going to hurt more, right? And she said, Yeah. And so I was like, Okay, pop it. And they did. And that was more like what I thought my water breaking would be like. There was a ton of water then it was really very, very overwhelming and very fast and excruciating. I hate saying that when, like, people are listening before they’re ready because like, that was not my experience of contractions, but it really was. I was just I had been so like mentally game the whole time and I totally lost my head. Like I could not do the pushing breathing that had been recommended. I totally lost it. I was just screaming the whole time, like screaming, Help me,
Kiona 1:02:55
mm mm
Mackenzie 1:02:57
help me reach and get him out. It was very intense. I actually had to ask them to count for me, which I also didn’t think I wanted. I was like, I don’t want anything. Fo my first birth. I had to have them count for me to help me focus because I was so out of my mind. But, yes! Then, he finally we were there and his hand popped out and fast and they said they were like, His fist is right there. Like you delivered his head with his fist. Like, I’ve never had the fetal injection reflex, but they were like, That’s why you were working so hard. Like, I was working so hard. And that was seriously the most unbelievable feeling that I have ever had in my life. the Relief was so overwhelming that I even like. I didn’t do anything. Through the next contraction I just laid there, I was, like, so spent and out of it. And my first son, he had just slid right out. And so I was like, Oh, I’m done. This one turned out was substantially larger. And I could not just chill. so the midwife kind of like I like, literally didn’t do anything for a whole contraction. And she kind of got up and she got in my face and she was like, You’re going to have to push the baby. She was like, Your body’s not going to do it for you with this one. You got to help. And so I was like, okay. And I pushed him out in the next contraction and, oh, my God. Like,
wow, Was that like, so much more than what I had been expecting to feel with my first? It’s going to make me emotional like the euphoria, the birth high. It was like, unlike anything that I have ever experienced in my life. I was like,
screaming now with, like, glee. I was just like, shouting, Oh, my God, Oh, my God. I was, like, talking to him. I was like, I love you so much. I tried to reach down and, like, rip him out of his hands. And it turned out I had a super short cord. So she was like, No. She was like, He has to. He has to go on your belly for a second. Like, I was completely freaking out. I was like, I can’t believe I did it. It was incredible. It was like so much more than I dreamed it would be. And it had so been my goal like that had been the dream. And it was just like so overwhelming to get to have that experience. And then we just like I snuggled him for 2 hours and no one touched him, and he was just like, he looked so different for my first. It was so weird. He had all this dark hair. My, my first is like, so blond and came out entirely bald and he had all this dark hair. And there’s something about the feeling of meeting a second or a third or whatever, a baby, when you know what your bond will be like, like looking at them and knowing what you have coming. Like really understanding what you have coming that is extraordinary I. was like, so into all of this, I didn’t even realize I was hemorrhaging like
Kiona 1:06:00
Oh no.
Mackenzie 1:06:00
I, I live in. It actually was not bad. It was not bad. It was mild and they were incredible. But I literally had no idea. Like the only time that I ever felt any distress about it was was after it was actually all resolved. And I felt like kind of crap, like trying to get up and go to the bathroom. the midwife, just kind of came over and she was like, You’re bleeding a little bit more than we’d like. Can we give you a shot of Pitocin in the thigh? They but they still, like, they asked me for my consent. They were so calm. I had no idea and afterword and it resolved basically immediately then. And she was like, so you had a fairly minor hemorrhage, but you had a hemorrhage. And we were like, What? And my doula, I was like, lat said, Yeah. She was like, I noticed like, you were really bleeding. But I had no idea because it was so peaceful. There was no chaos. And I was just so wrapped up in my son And I didn’t have any other issues. I didn’t have to have fluids. I still went home. 8 hours later. the hemorrhage is like a blip on the radar in that story. Like, it doesn’t even really factor into me because the whole experience was so amazing and they handled it so well that it was like not remotely traumatic, in a way that it could have been if somebody had been like, she’s bleeding,
Kiona 1:07:16
Right,
Mackenzie 1:07:17
you
Kiona 1:07:17
right.
Mackenzie 1:07:17
know, and if they had just been like, stabbing me with the needle. So, yeah, they weighed him and they were like, take a guess. They had asked me, you know, how big was your first? And I said, £6, 15 ounces. They held him up and they were like, laughing. And they were like, Do you want to guess how much he weighs? And I said, Seven and a half, and no one else gets that big. And he was £8 and two and a half ounces up from 615. And we were like, what? Like that was such a crazy jump to us. And, you know, Nuchal Hand and all. I had like a scratch. I’m like the second degree terror. It was incredible. And so the recovery with all of those beautiful hormones and basically no tear was great. the mental situation was so much better. You know, I still had baby blues. I did end up actually having some postpartum depression
Kiona 1:08:08
mm mm
Mackenzie 1:08:08
that set in with like that giant four month hormone drop where basically I saw all my hair fall out
Kiona 1:08:16
mm
Mackenzie 1:08:16
and then like a week
Kiona 1:08:16
mm
Mackenzie 1:08:16
later, I was not doing well.
Kiona 1:08:18
right mm
Mackenzie 1:08:19
But it was a very, very different experience. I was so much more confident the experience of like setting my mind on the natural birth and achieving it and having it be so beautiful was like a very, very empowering way to start second time motherhood. And it really made all the difference. it was incredible.
Kiona 1:08:41
That is so beautiful. I love that your second experience was, like, somewhat redemptive, your second birth sounds so much more empowering, so much more informed and able to make decisions based off of information, based off of experience. And then working with providers that hear you, see you, validate you for what you’re wanting and feeling and seeing. And then for you to have the opportunity to experience that immediate post-birth high that moment right there is so amazing. And I know exactly what you’re talking about. Like
Mackenzie 1:09:22
Yeah,
Kiona 1:09:22
that, that feeling of what you’re talking about now. this whole time I was waiting. Once you told me he had a knuckle fist, I
Mackenzie 1:09:30
yeah,
Kiona 1:09:30
was like, okay, I was waiting for you to say lots of blood. And then you mentioned hemorrhage. And I was like, Oh. And then I was going to ask, Did he tell you really bad? Because usually with a knuckle fist comes that elbow and that elbow likes to force the path, you know?
Mackenzie 1:09:47
yes,
Kiona 1:09:48
So happy that you didn’t tear super crazily from his elbow.
Mackenzie 1:09:54
I know. I was surprised. They were so great. They were like, slow, slow, slow. Which was so hard.
Kiona 1:10:02
Mm
Mackenzie 1:10:02
Like
Kiona 1:10:03
mm.
Mackenzie 1:10:03
when, when it was so intense,
Kiona 1:10:04
Mm. Right.
Mackenzie 1:10:04
like, I just wanted to go completely like half, you know, just
Kiona 1:10:09
Mm.
Mackenzie 1:10:09
insane and just let him, like, rip
Kiona 1:10:13
Mm.
Mackenzie 1:10:13
for black. You know,
Kiona 1:10:14
Right.
Mackenzie 1:10:14
it’s very funny, but they really held me back, and I was I was in my head enough to listen and they were fabulous. I was super grateful for that. I was like, that was that was not my that was not one of my major goals. I was like, I didn’t really care. And it ended up being like I felt so good having not had to deal with that. Yes. with this next one, let’s keep the fists down.
Kiona 1:10:40
Right.
Mackenzie 1:10:40
Like, let’s,
Kiona 1:10:41
Yeah.
Mackenzie 1:10:42
let’s make that a
Kiona 1:10:42
Right.
Mackenzie 1:10:42
little less crazy at the very end.
Kiona 1:10:44
Right.
Mackenzie 1:10:45
But
Kiona 1:10:45
Yeah.
Mackenzie 1:10:46
yeah,
Kiona 1:10:46
That’ll be nice. Hopefully
Mackenzie 1:10:46
yeah,
Kiona 1:10:47
he’s in there listening to you say those things. Don’t be like your brother. Don’t be like your brother.
Mackenzie 1:10:52
Yeah. Who’s literally so chill? Like he’s the most agreeable
Kiona 1:10:55
Right.
Mackenzie 1:10:56
kid in the world, but he came out with, like, a protest fist up. He was like, I’m ready to rage.
Kiona 1:11:02
Yeah.
Mackenzie 1:11:02
Yeah. No, he’s so calm.
Kiona 1:11:03
That’s
Mackenzie 1:11:04
Yeah.
Kiona 1:11:05
That’s awesome. Oh, I love that. I think that’s so great. One more thing that I wanted to point out before we move to the final closing questions is you mentioned that you’re not a math person. You’re not a super numbers person. And then you were doing, like the counting of your breaths and creating this pattern. I want to say good for you, because birth, especially unmedicated unmedicated birth, the the rhythm and the pattern absolutely makes a humongous difference. as a doula, I will say that’s one of the things that I pull out of my toolkit is counting. counting.
Mackenzie 1:11:43
Yeah,
Kiona 1:11:43
you don’t have to be a math whiz, you’re having a contraction. Okay, we’re going to count. And then as soon as your contractions are, we’re going to stop counting like the number we get to. Doesn’t matter. But the rhythm that you create
Mackenzie 1:11:55
right.
Kiona 1:11:55
with your counting, a lot of people end up rocking as they’re counting, through this contraction. And then they’re breathing through their counting. Like it literally makes such a big difference because it gives you that focal point. So I just wanted to point that out and say, good for you. You did amazing.
Mackenzie 1:12:13
Well, thank you. Yes. It was so meditative. And numbers have never been anything other than unsighted to me.
And it was and like you were saying before, like that this was kind of a redemptive experience where the first birth wasn’t, like, big T traumatic, but really left me feeling very un empowered and, like, very confused and very numb. And this one was very much like I leaned fully into my every single instinct that I had and nothing was standing in the way of any of those instincts and all the preparation and the people like my husband was incredible and my doula was incredible. And to have everybody like assisting me in basically following all of my instincts was the most empowering thing I’ve ever done in my life. And it’s funny because it was like, what? From the time I got there was like 3 hours. He was born at 525. So from the time when I was at home, it actually wasn’t all that much shorter than the first day with like 6 hours as opposed to seven. But there was that kind of mental stall when I was at home and from the time I got to the birth center was 3 hours and yeah, it was like everybody was just like there to cheer me on and to help me facilitate every single instinct I had and to validate those instincts rather than question any of them.
Kiona 1:13:36
I
Mackenzie 1:13:36
It was fabulous. It was so redemptive.
Kiona 1:13:39
I love that. I love that so much. I think that is so amazing. And you know, a lot of people do this kind of thing where their first experience, they kind of don’t necessarily go in blind, but they do very little research because they expect everything’s going to be fine, My providers are going to support me, you know, There are absolutely times when that happens. But also that point of where you just don’t always end up having the birth that you expect to have. So.
Mackenzie 1:14:06
Yes.
Kiona 1:14:06
Yeah.
Mackenzie 1:14:08
Yeah. And really, like I just very much with the first viewed it as this is a medical event.
Kiona 1:14:13
mm
Mackenzie 1:14:14
The doctors know
Kiona 1:14:15
mm
Mackenzie 1:14:15
what they’re doing. I’m there to be like a participant and the baby will arrive. And like that mindset dramatically changed with my second and it was like, this is about my body and my baby. And as a midwife who I recently saw for this third baby was like the team that is there is there to facilitate your experience and what you want
Kiona 1:14:42
mm
Mackenzie 1:14:43
while
Kiona 1:14:43
mm
Mackenzie 1:14:43
you are giving birth. It is about you and your baby and she
Kiona 1:14:46
mm.
Mackenzie 1:14:47
was like, We’re
Kiona 1:14:47
Love
Mackenzie 1:14:47
there to support you.
Kiona 1:14:48
Love it.
Mackenzie 1:14:49
Yeah, yeah.
Kiona 1:14:50
Beautiful. That is so great. Okay, so I have three, well I have four final closing questions for you. The first one is just give us a brief description of how these two birth experiences are going to change what you do for your third
Mackenzie 1:15:08
Oh
yes. So we have moved again because military. So I can’t go back to the same place, which is kind of hard. I would love to be able to do that. And I was really very torn between freestanding birth center and hospital, like I said earlier, really related to my own comfort. Like I know the stats on how safe home birth and freestanding birth center birth are. It’s not so much about that. I’ve had really fairly uncomplicated births, but like I saw how much my mental safety played a role in my second, that home is just not an option for me. Like I’ll be too worried about my kids. I’ll be too focused on how much noise I’m making, not an option. And the birth center is just further for a transfer than I’m comfortable with. So regardless
Kiona 1:16:04
hmm.
Mackenzie 1:16:04
of all of those like safety stats, I just think I did like a pros and cons basically, and tried to like really get deep on what where am I going to feel safest? And fortunately there is a hospital around here. GW that has like a very, very good track record for natural birth. They don’t have as many midwives as I wish they did, so I’m not guaranteed one. But I actually grew up in the area and so I know some people and have some friends who are like affiliated. And I met I have a doula that I’ve hired that I’m going to be working with but had talked to some other doulas while I was kind of searching for the right spot and some people who I knew and friends of friends and I have heard nothing but great things about this place. And what I met with the midwife there, it really kind of solidified the choice that was the one who was really giving that, you know, spiel about like, we are there for you. I said, I want to be able to give birth in the shower. I probably want to stay in the shower. I said, Am I going to have to fight for that? Because I was like, I don’t doubt that I can have an unmedicated birth in a hospital because I’ve done it before. But am I going to have to have an argument with someone? Is the environment going to be unfriendly? Is the environment going to be not conducive to it? And I could not have been more reassured, really. And she even they don’t do tours ever since COVID. And she was like, it’s
Kiona 1:17:29
Yeah.
Mackenzie 1:17:29
dumb that they don’t do tours. She was like,
Kiona 1:17:31
Mm mm
Mackenzie 1:17:32
they really need to pick them back up. But she said, Email me, I’ll get you in, come meet the nurses, bring your your toddler because he’s still at home with me. She was like, Come meet
Kiona 1:17:42
mm.
Mackenzie 1:17:42
everyone, Get familiar with the space so that you feel safe here.
Kiona 1:17:45
mm.
Mackenzie 1:17:46
Amazing.
Kiona 1:17:46
Love
Mackenzie 1:17:47
So
Kiona 1:17:47
that.
Mackenzie 1:17:47
I was like, okay,
Kiona 1:17:48
Mm
Mackenzie 1:17:48
yes. So really everything I’ve heard is fabulous. Even that even if you get an OBE, they’re like, All right, I’ll squat under yuh in the shower and so get your baby real wet. So that was like really the only scenario in which I would have probably felt safe at a hospital after the first one, just like with the such terrible vibes. So, yeah, that’s kind of the plan and definitely unmedicated. I mean, there are some births where like you really have to use an epidural as a tool, like where there are situations,
Kiona 1:18:17
mm
Mackenzie 1:18:17
I feel like where it can really be useful. But my experience first statistic and I’m like, I am not at all tempted to
Kiona 1:18:24
mm.
Mackenzie 1:18:24
do anything other than get
Kiona 1:18:26
Right,
Mackenzie 1:18:26
that high at the end. Like,
Kiona 1:18:28
right,
Mackenzie 1:18:29
you know,
Kiona 1:18:29
right.
Mackenzie 1:18:29
Yeah. So that’s my plan for this little guy.
Kiona 1:18:32
Beautiful, beautiful. I love it. And I love how it truly does include your comfort zone. Like that is the primary thing, right? It is where you are comfortable, where you feel safest and then you’re talking to your team, getting your group together, your support network together to make it happen for you. I think that’s great.
Mackenzie 1:18:50
Yes. And I’m trying to look at it as like, Oh, I’m going to go into the hospital now and I’m going to have a beautiful natural birth and that is going to be like an extra little empowerment.
Kiona 1:19:01
right,
Mackenzie 1:19:01
It’s like I’m trying to view it that way. Like now that I’ve made the decision, I’m like, okay, we’re going to go back into the hospital, but we’re going to have a different experience.
Kiona 1:19:10
right. Yeah, absolutely. And you know, you sound like you’re absolutely on the right track for that and that it’s going to come to fruition for you. So I think that’s great. So I have three final closing questions for you. And so just briefly, I would love for you to tell me what is one piece of advice that you would give all pregnant people to prepare for labor, birth and postpartum?
Mackenzie 1:19:34
So preparing for postpartum is like. I feel like that is such a hard thing to do. Which may not be the most encouraging thing to hear. And I don’t mean it that way, but like, how do you prepare for the sleep stuff? How? You know, I really did prepare for nursing. Like if nursing is something that’s important to you, to read about it and to familiarize yourself so much of it as feel, but like to familiarize yourself as much as you can figure out, what your lactation consultant situation is with your insurance or at your hospital or wherever you are. Giving birth ahead of time is a great place to start. I see one with every kid, even if like with my second, things were not painful at all. Saw one because I was like, We’re just going to check in and make
Kiona 1:20:21
mm
Mackenzie 1:20:21
sure everything looks good. in preparing for postpartum. Like just trust yourself,which can be hard to do with the first one. it really is so mental, like to try to mentally prepare yourself that there will be challenges in adapting to breastfeeding or say your kid has jaundice. Like,
Kiona 1:20:39
Right.
Mackenzie 1:20:39
there are going to be some things that pop up to the sleep stuff that is more predictable. It will get better and you will figure it out. And also the second time will be easier, like adapting to the postpartum piece in particular. And I always recommend a doula. No matter what kind of a birth you think you want to have. I know that that’s like not everybody has the resources for that all the time, but there are tools and training like doulas are just
amazing.
Kiona 1:21:08
I would agree. And that’s not only because I’m a doula I had an amazing doula for two of my births. Two of the three and I would absolutely hire her again. So
Mackenzie 1:21:17
Yes,
Kiona 1:21:18
yes,
Mackenzie 1:21:18
they’re incredible.
Kiona 1:21:20
Yes. So let’s move on to the second question. what is one resource that I can share with the listeners on your behalf?
Mackenzie 1:21:29
This is kind of an obvious one to birth podcast,
Kiona 1:21:31
Yeah.
Mackenzie 1:21:32
not to be like yours. I also love the birth hour and the Informed Pregnancy podcast, but in addition to that, I loved the positive birth company. I’m not too much of like a hypnosis gal, a meditation gal, but I adored it. A lot of it was really about mental state preparing your mental state, and I loved it. And they have like an app that comes with their course that helps you time in it and it does little meditations for you if you want. So I really liked that.
Kiona 1:22:01
Yeah. Yeah. I think that’s beautiful. And I would add to your list of podcasts because you are a military family. And so there’s another birth podcast. I don’t know if you’ve heard about it. It’s called Military Birth Talk and it’s
Mackenzie 1:22:14
I
Kiona 1:22:14
Yeah,
Mackenzie 1:22:14
think I actually listened to her story on your
Kiona 1:22:17
yeah,
Mackenzie 1:22:17
podcast, like just last week. Yes.
Kiona 1:22:19
yes,
Mackenzie 1:22:19
Yes.
Kiona 1:22:20
yes. And she’s amazing. I believe she’s episode I want to say 54. yes, Anni is episode 54 and she is the host of Military Birth Talk, which is another great resource. let’s go ahead and just close off this interview with one final question of if you could choose one word for each of your births, what would it be?
Mackenzie 1:22:41
For my first for Jack’s birth. I would say surprising or unexpected. And for Teddy’s birth. Like a glorious.
Kiona 1:22:54
Hmm. Yeah,
Mackenzie 1:22:56
Yeah, glorious. And I, you know, like, every birth is different. I love my babies equally. There’s like, this. Like, I wish that I could have had that for my first. It’s almost like I wish that his first moments could have been that.
Kiona 1:23:13
Mm.
Mackenzie 1:23:13
But I learned so much from that experience with him. And, you know, your first teaches you so much
Kiona 1:23:21
It does.
Mackenzie 1:23:23
and that was at birth. His birth taught me so much. And so that is like just as beautiful in its own way that I got to share that with him.
Kiona 1:23:32
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, without Jack, there’d be no Teddy, So.
Mackenzie 1:23:37
That’s right.
Kiona 1:23:38
And I would love to say, you sharing your story on here and all of the other amazing people that have shared their stories are giving those first time parents the opportunity to learn from other people’s experiences, to be able to potentially get that the first go round.
Mackenzie 1:23:53
Yes.
Kiona 1:23:53
yes,
Mackenzie 1:23:54
Yeah.
Kiona 1:23:54
yes. Well, Mackenzie, thank you so much for sharing your birth stories with me. And of course, congratulations and happy birthing with your third little boy.
Mackenzie 1:24:03
Thank you so much. Thank you for having me.
Kiona 1:24:06
Yes, of course.
Outro 1:24:21
One of the best parts about being a host of this podcast is getting the opportunity to let. The guest lead. It was very clear that Mackenzie was ready to tell her story, and I love how she was able to pull in so many details from both of her births. McKenzie, thank you so much for sharing your stories with us and thank you for being honest about what you experienced emotionally throughout both of them, as well as postpartum and congratulations on the conception of your third baby boy.
listeners, if you like this episode, I suggest also checking out episode 54 with Anni Denzel. In that episode, she talks about it’s like to give birth while having a husband that’s in the military. And if you want to partake in discussions about the podcast or specific episodes, I would love for you to join the birth as we know it Podcast Community on Facebook. You can do that by going to
birthasweknowitpodcast. com/community. And last but not least, if you would like to see the beautiful photos of Mackenzie and her family well as look at the show notes for this episode. You can go to
birthasweknowitpodcast. com/81. Alright friends, thanks for listening. I will talk to you again soon. Bye for now.
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